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Bruce Raben's avatar

I think a lot of Americans of the democratic persuasion will misinterpret what this election meant in both Hungary and how it translates to American. It wasn’t usa democratic liberals. It was a vote for the rule of law. For less corruption and more euro and less Russia. It wasn’t liberal American style progressivism. As you say still very anti immigration but even Denmark is tough on immigration and while not pro Ukrainian they want the 20 B euro 💶 and said will not block an EU loan 💸 if not participate. So a good day for Hungary and the world

Frau Katze's avatar

People just don’t uncontrolled immigration. There may be a few people who don’t care but it’s a recipe for electing illiberal populists like Trump and Orban.

Bruce Raben's avatar

Agree. Even Bernie Sanders said if you don’t have borders you don’t have a country. You need borders and rules of entry and departure or you are not a country

MariaPI's avatar

What is your problem with immigration, Gary? They let you stay in the US, didn't they? On what grounds? And who was the president who let you stay? And yes, no human being is illegal. You can have borders and a nation and you can have a welcoming but sensible immigration process. Just like the one we had under every president before Trump, including Obama. So that poor people and refugees fleeing bombs and famine, including from Ukraine BTW, don't have to drown in the Rio Grande or be hunted down and shot like animals in the desert. What we have never had and don't have is open borders. That's a GOP trope. In fact more immigrants were deported during Obama's and Biden's time than during Trump's regime, because things were done by law and order, not by fear and chaos. Now we have Alligator Alcatraz where people disappear, thanks to the type of "actual conservatives" that you evidently espouse.

As far as Hungarians, yes, they are indeed right of center, hard headed, racist and misogynistic. I have worked with people from all over the world and can confirm. Maybe that's why they chose an "actual conservative". As long as they stay within their borders, oppose Putin and don't obstruct the European integration, we don't need their "conservative" example here in USA.

SunnySideUp's avatar

I think he is expressing an opinion on culture, not immigration, and is touching on the rising tensions in Europe and the USA over foreigners and gypsies. In the USA, I think it's more about jobs, and the occasional screw-up, drunk kid that murders or rapes. More like the problem of our Marines in Okinawa, where one incident can be framed as the sole effect of a much larger phenomenon. What he is saying is we should want the same thing and be willing to adjust our expectations toward the defeat of our own kakistocracy. I went off on immigration myself because I don't understand it as a bread-and-butter issue to Americans, but it may have been established as such for now. Cultural issues require more careful, gradual approaches; they are strategic, not tactical. We have Substack, but we won't be buying any networks, sadly. I believe, though, as you do, with respect to Mr. Kasparov's suggestion, that it might be time for the Democrats to take a disciplined position in favor of controlled immigration and move towards amnesty.

AnaR737's avatar

It is a big win and I am happy. But Orban and Putin are not done. They will try to sabotage or coopt Magyar. We are not out of the woods.

Protect the Vote's avatar

What’s Wrong With The American Electorate?

Finally someone is willing to say the quiet part out loud In an interview(https://bit.ly/41rrNPb )with Greg Sargent over at the New Republic political theorist Alan Elrod makes the point that an electorate that votes an immoral cretin like Cheeto twice into office has something seriously wrong with it

As Elrod points out, "No morally healthy country would put this man in power twice," adding, "We have become a morally insane, civically disordered, and self-regardingly decadent country."

Yes, it’s hard to be introspective Hungary found this out with Orban and shows that democratic countries can right themselves Interviews with on the street Hungarians several months ago in one MSNOW segment showed the resolve to right the ship of state after having been oppressed for 16y In those interviews those interviewed spoke to Americans directly saying, “don’t make the same mistake we made”

But yet here we are Some of the electorate believed absent mindedly all the Cheeto campaign lies but there is always another day and come November it’ll be a new dawn and a new day

SunnySideUp's avatar

I believe there is moral intelligence, as well as emotional intelligence, even social intelligence. When I work in the yard all day digging holes, I am not thinking of Plato, my blood is in my arms, not my brain; shovel intelligence, I guess. I've done and said some stupid things at different times in my life, and I understand that a person can be quite dull on one thing but brilliant on another. The point of all this, and where some may disagree, is that I believe these intelligences are not entirely mutable as they are interchangeable, based on my own experience. Our nation may have a low moral IQ because our society is not really pulling in that direction. We are told to focus on pederasty in a lurid way, rather than on the power dynamics and human mechanics involved, which are too similar to our own politics. We emphasize punishment over forgiveness, and our actions are governed by fear, not favor. That can change, if it suits someone.

Eric B Lange's avatar

Proves I have 24/7 surveillance - just buried a dead ground-squirrel (DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY*) that was floating in my horse's trough. Dug a big ole hole in deep hard ground - using SHOVEL intelligence (exactly as you describe) - really I was trying to show up the ole Mexicans working on a building project on the other side of the fence to my horse property. They were pretty experienced old salts also.

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ME with - Archeological shovel intelligence + World War One trench digging intelligence (from an archaic Boarding school) and decades of shit shoveling and mucking out Horse barn intelligence and working with many different teams of Mexicans shovel "Intelligence" + training a young landscape firm called the WOLFSCAPERS to use both a rake and shovel (in spite of being nearly crippled).

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I did however catch covid off a rake for rigorous rake demonstrations (truly they had no idea) .

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Apparently I didn't practice "Safe raking". (rolling eyes yellow disk emoji that I can't be bothered to cut and paste.).

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I mean literally nobody uses a rake these days...(to their detriment.).

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- six years later I dug a hole in spite of serious back injuries (medical malpractice)- chronic pain - and a fatal heart condition caused by covid 19 (Permanent Atrial Fibrillation) on Beta blockers ... + shattered wrists (old injury) and recently on the mend broken leg and ankle... but my shovel strokes and dirt fly clean as swan lake the ballet.

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That was a proud moment for me in spite of being totally broke and crippled.

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Didn't know I had it in me - and yet I am quite young and def. not a coach potato / former gym rat.

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Fucking covid man.

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Two million American dead and counting ALL brushed uner the carpet.

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Another distraction to a distraction to a distraction of yet another core manipulation from yet ANOTHER distraction from actual culpability.

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Burying the medium sized little squirrel corpse not quite too flyblown nor bloated nor maggoty before it starts stinking up the joint seemed fairly symbolic to me. The now living icon for ADD and distraction itself now buried deep where even the dogs nor coyotes could find nor dig (UP) the soggy near time-frozen serene glistening gray bushy tailed little critter.

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Not quite sure if the building operation had used strychnine to kill the ground squirrels so correspondingly I had to completely change out 120 gallon troughs (for the horse) - in the middle of the night - super tricky if you have a torn (annular) tear s1 spinal disk and nerve wreckage.

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Eric B Lange's avatar

Why does this all sound like Sam Elliot from Big Lebowski ?

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"The Stranger" ?

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Eric B Lange's avatar

Well maybe slightly different to usual Daniel Day Lewis beats Paul Dano over the head with a bowling pin and "Drink your milkshake sequence" -

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"I'm finished " .

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hAaIxDTjQA&t=1s

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Johannes Brahms - Violin Concerto in D Major Op.77: 3. Vivace Non Troppo (There Will Be Blood)

SunnySideUp's avatar

The immigration 'problem' is, well, "trumped up". The Trump problem is not. I've long been willing to subordinate my own libertarian instincts about immigration to the purpose of defeating dissimulation and hypnotical lying influences in our politics. The 'problem' of immigration is far more of an imposition than immigration itself is. Americans' anxiety about jobs and one's own social integration can easily be turned into a bipolar view designed to enhance the power of a faction for its own ends, and this is what has happened. For the strictly pragmatic reasons cited by economists, Republicans have in the past granted amnesties and participated in the expansion of legal immigration, to the benefit of our economy and the refreshment of our nation. The USA is a regional and ethnic conglomerate and has no set culture, although I always considered that, if it did, it would be an aspirational elite of folks like Jeffrey Sachs (he gave a nice interview in the Nikkei Times last week). The East Coast prep school Ivy League elite that the Roosevelts and Kennedys inhabited were once the respectable guardians of Aristotelian ethics and the lessons of Tacitus; those people seem to be absolute shits now (et tu, Cavanaugh, enjoy your DC Power drinks.) I personally don't think that American independent voters, most of whom probably lean one way or another, are a monolithic block that leans right ethnonationalistically. With the capture of the political medium by special interests through the First Amendment, freedom of money as speech, increasingly, Democrats have compromised for Republican votes on bills by increasing customs enforcement personnel and reducing IRS funding, hoping to ride the trend. Meanwhile, immigration judges are being dismissed and are already insufficient to promulgate the laws we have. Now we have the (long-ignored) problem of corruption in our border enforcement. In the face of the ridiculous bigotry and underhandedness of Stephen Miller, I would expect that it would not be hard for the Democratic Party to maintain a disciplined border policy and stand up for legal immigration while merely stating the intention to enforce the law competently and fairly. We may disagree on this, but I believe that in the light of constant news reports about lives being torn apart, now is the time that Democrats should work towards a willingness to include amnesty in a new legal immigration bill. The question is: in November, will it be a change of government or a change of culture?

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Piotr Szafranski's avatar

Exactly. The "winning combination" is, first and foremost, "rule of law and rooting out corruption". The same story was in Poland 2023, when a twin-Orban illiberal gov was voted out.

A nice thing about "rule of law" is that most of the progressive agenda can live within this ecosystem, advancing at a pace which is accepted by the society. And somehow it always turns out that the "holier than a Pope" conservatives turn out to be thieves or worse.

So a really big tent can be put around a solid center or center-right credible leadership.

Eric B Lange's avatar

I have a migraine - .

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My advice - YOU ARE NOT DOING IT RIGHT UNLESS it gives you a migraine.

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Pro-tip ^^^

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Eric B Lange's avatar

It's a living I guess -

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I guess I'm doing it all wrong even that r*tard chick on tik tok that does cool art bought herself a brand NEW Toyota Carolla from her social Media channel...

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Whoze the retard now Huh >>>> ME (apparently)...

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[" He treats the written word much in the same way Francis Bacon slashes his canvases with rejected paint and failed concepts while seeing raw slabs of butchered and hung halves of cow as beautiful through said rejected paint. " ].

Eric B Lange's avatar

I'm not 100% sure where you get graded micro-tonal (rubber) chickens from...

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(Not a $5000.00 a plate fund raiser - rubber chicken "Event" + famous speaker thrown in .).

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Eric B Lange's avatar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZeHHMlkJM

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^^^ Rossini - Figaro on Chicken - Il Barbiere di Siviglia "Largo al factotum"

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It's not even Angine de Poitrine...

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Eric B Lange's avatar

The US medical system is at least twenty-five times more dangerous to me than Trump - the Chines and Iranians all put together.

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And NOW I hear and see that Mexico now has a consolidated national health care system ?

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2nd dangerous to me where I live are cottonwood trees.

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Over the years they have done a really good job of nearly completely killing me with psychotically large and immediately self severing limbs.

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X - wife waaaaaaaay more dangerous to me (historically) than Trump...

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etc.

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Hardly a day goes buy where I don't think that I am lucky to not be in an active war zone having my arse shot off.

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I still can't or find the need to fly to Ukraine and shoot at young Russians... (or even older one or one's starting to creep into "Middle age" and parenthood. ).

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I could be killing this guy... (not putting bullet through) but some stupid janky drone made by DJI in China with a grenade attached...

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVx3TD7WYwI&t=1s

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^^^ WHY would I want to do that ?

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Bohemian Rhapsody on Rubber Chickens

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Vinheteiro / Lord Vinheteiro

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That's not all he does...

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Occasionally he plays a Fazioli but I forgive him for that.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBxA-txgW-g

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Happy farmer ^^^

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2izsqjpRLI

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Happy B-day in Brazil and Russia...What is Ballchat ?

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Eric B Lange's avatar

Bumped for clarity...

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" - six years later I dug a hole in spite of serious back injuries (medical malpractice)- chronic pain - and a fatal heart condition caused by covid 19 (Permanent Atrial Fibrillation) on Beta blockers ... + shattered wrists (old injury) and recently on the mend broken leg and ankle... but my shovel strokes and dirt fly clean as swan lake the ballet. ".

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Но мои мазки лопатой, и грязь разлетается чисто, как в балете «Лебединое озеро».

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Almost - not quite the essence.

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Eric B Lange's avatar

Happy B-day Gary ... Hang cool bro... don't worry we've got plenty of time to steam roll all those AI chatbots into electronic oblivion.

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Yes Yes --- we'll be pulling that B*stard 'Deep Blue" douche bag one transistor at a time and bucket of muriatic acid. Jerk can't even play chess properly like an actual human like all you suck-tastic time wasting chatbots that "Pretend" to be human and don't even know if yer alive or not.

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Roll a big fatty for me.

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Maybe not - the US consulate / Embassy can get a bit sticky if you fail the drugs test.

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[Not me but an employee I had - a specialist from the UK].

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Gotta get a passport bro.

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Collin Reid's avatar

Doesn’t his party also have basically the exact same position on Ukraine as Orban?

Collin Reid's avatar

If by the outside world you mean Anglo-America and Northern Europe, yes in the sense that they also don’t want to let Ukraine into NATO or the EU. The rest of the world doesn’t really want anything from Hungary, and seem more than happy to trade with Russia unless the US threatens them.

Frau Katze's avatar

All the outside world wants of him is not block EU loans to Ukraine and sanctions on Russia. He doesn’t have to send people to fight there.