Recognizing a State of Palestine, which does not come without conditions, is welcome on ethical, historical and political grounds, and timing is not the issue. Now both Hamas and the Israeli government reject a two-state solution and can jeopardize any altogether. So, will the Palestinian Authority be able to reform itself without more delay, evince Hamas and convince its public opinion as well as Israelis' that a peaceful two-state solution is feasible ? Not without the support and active help of Arab and Western countries, for sure, and if other G20 countries could get involved, why not ? In other words, let's revive multilateralism, for God's sake !
The Arab states just called on Hamas to hand over power to the Palestinian authority in support of the 2 state solution. There’s no doubt that they conferred with the Palestinian Authority before making this declaration. I believe the statement even said they received support from the PA.
It’s a safe assumption that the PA is on board with removing Hamas and implementing the 2 state solution.
Yes. They are correct. I’ve been an extremely outspoken advocate for Israel, but the abandonment of the 2 state solution is not acceptable.
The Arab states surprised me this week by echoing my own feelings. Remove Hamas, then get recognized as a state. That would be a win for Israel, and an even bigger win for the rest of the world.
Netanyahu does not have Israel’s best interest in mind on this issue. Before Hamas took the exclave in 2008, there was much more optimism in Israel about making peace with Palestine.
I don’t care for the timing of the UK , Canada and France decisions, but I would betray myself if I argued against what they are doing here. I support the 2 state solution, so I support the recognition of Palestine. It’s never a good time to reject their statehood. That’s a terrible message to send to the world. Sovereignty does not come with conditions. Uriel has this messaging issue backwards.
Hamas might feel that this recognition is a gift for them right now, or they might pretend that it’s a gift, but they will come to understand that this whole concept is about removing them and handing off power to the PA.
Any and all discourse that breaks the anti-Israel stigma and forces antizionists to reckon with other worldviews is a huge win for society. These conversations are essential. Antizionists should be made to understand that Hamas is the only barrier to statehood, and their entire premise of genocide is an outrageous misunderstanding.
Edit: Israel being verbally opposed to a 2 state solution should not be treated like that option is off the table. It’s a negotiating stance. We need to compel them to realize this is their best chance to claim victory in Gaza. Nobody knows what they will agree on behind closed doors unless you’re in the room where it happens.
how do you negotiate a two-state solution with people who are largely against it and rejected half a dozen opportunities for peace, coexistence, and statehood over a hundred years? And who, instead, openly and unabashedly express support for the genocide of the Jewish people--in Israel and beyond? and how can you possibly negotiate a state without first negotiating a peace? what is the specific codified Palestinian peace proposal? In fact, has there ever been one? And with whom can it be negotiated in good faith? the PA? Hamas? The people who built and financed the pay-for-slay program? Who make sure schoolbooks and children's shows refer to Jews as apes, pigs, devils, and cockroaches? Who teach their children that the most noble pursuit is not to become a lawyer, doctor, or engineer--but to murder, rape, and kidnap Jews?
Nothing will change until their culture changes. Look at the peace treaties with Morocco, Bahrain, Sudan, UAE, (almost Saudi Arabia) and of course, Jordan and Egypt. Israel wants peace. Negotiated in good faith at every opportunity. Returned a significant amount of land in exchange for that peace, including Gaza. Arguably, the little 'two state experiment that failed.'
What you and I think about a two-state or one-state solution is irrelevant in practical terms. I used to support it. But Palestinians are largely against it. And while I don't care for Bibi, I reject the notion that he doesn't have Israel's best interest at heart. He just has a different opinion about Israel's long-term security, arguably reinforced by Oct 7th (unless we go out of our way to confuse or reverse cause and effect). And let's be objective for a moment and consider the state of Israel's long term security today vs October 6th 2023. Hamas is lame or on its last legs. It lost the support of Arab and Gulf states. Hezbollah has been eviscerated. Iran was crippled and on the precipice of a counter revolution. Its nuclear program is severely damaged or delayed. And when you think about it, and despite the rabid global jew hatred (because who likes Jews when they win), not least in Europe, Israel is ironically in a better position today (i.e. safer and more secure) than it has EVER been. There will be more wars and sacrifices, sadly, but on balance, there is no better, freer place to be in the middle east--for Jews, Christians, Arabs, religious and ethnic minorities, women, homosexuals, etc. And even when you count the unnecessary death of Jews since the Holocaust from all the wars and intifadas and terror attacks, the number pales in comparison to what it would be for Jews without Israel.
If Palestinians are against the 2 state solution, then the best thing we can do is make them publicly confess that they do not want this. By recognizing the 2 state solution, it puts the ball back in Palestine’s court. If they reject the notion outright, then you are correct and we move forward without this idea.
This is about winning back the hearts and minds who were led astray by Islamic propaganda into supporting a far-right Hamas movement. If they see that Palestine doesn’t even want a 2 state solution despite our efforts, then we’ve successfully called the bluff of antizionism, and their movement loses a great deal of influence.
I empathize with most of what you have written here, but the people getting news from other sources will never see it this way unless we make them see it by trying to call their bluffs.
This discourse forces antizionists out of their echo chamber of hatred, and forces them to reckon with our worldviews. They must learn that their genocide claims against Israel are a disgusting falsehood. Israeli support for a 2 state solution would silence this accusation once and for all.
Israel has 2 stated formal goals in this war since Oct 8, 2023. 1) Free all hostages, and 2) Remove Hamas. The 2 state solution is not a threat to these goals, it’s the best option they have to realize these goals. For the first time ever, the Arab states seem to agree. I don’t believe that it’s a coincidence that the Arab statement was released just days after Hamas rejected another proposal in Doha. They’re fed up too.
You have to make up your mind. You can't laud the peace treaties with most of the Arab states, and still say the Arabs aren't interested in a two-state solution. It's Israel (or at least its current government) that has no interest in a two-state solution, nor in any solution that involves full citizenship for non-Jews in the West Bank. Don't take my work for it: it's in their coalition agreement. The other 21 Arab states can drag the Palestinians into an agreement, as long as it's fair. But it will take the EU and USA to drag the Israeli nationalists back to civilization from the apartheid and ethnic cleansing that their own cabinet has announced is their planned endgame.
You are correct not to listen to what Israel says. Down South there’s a saying “Don’t listen to what I say, listen to what I do.” By that standard Israel has shown over the decades it has no interest in a two state solution.
The continuing colonization of the West Bank by Israel bears much similarity to the French in Algeria, where the French colons enjoyed full rights as French citizens while Algerians were rendered second class citizens in their own country. Similarly Israel has actively encouraged the colonization in the West Bank through heavy financial subsidies, legally dubious land seizures, and the internal displacement of Palestinians in their own land.
Further, as a condition of previous agreements Israel has forced the Palestinian Authority to collaborate in this blatantly illegal scheme. Israel has all but rendered the Palestinians in the territory Israel administers, whether directly or through the PA, stateless.
These are not the actions of a country interested in a two state solution. If you need any further evidence, look to what’s happening in Gaza now. How Israel ever hopes to make peace after what it has done there is beyond me.
Israel is no longer the state it was in 1948. For those that support Israel the sooner you come to that realization the better it will be for a nation that now seems intent on destroying its own legitimacy.
I was hoping that Mr. Kasparov with his brain power, cultural and ethnic background would be voice of reason. But bringing this topic up for discussion, proved me wrong. Time to unsubscribe and look for voice of reason somewhere else.
Recognition has been decades in the making, not some suddenly recent fad. It would have to be backed up with a multi-lateral stabilisation force and international law being allowed to do its job.
For over fifty years, Israeli nationalists have been creating facts on the ground to prevent any sort of feasible Palestinian state, leaving apartheid and ethnic cleansing as the options going forward. For various geopolitical and historical reasons, the West accepted this, partly in the hope that the peace that was always just over the horizon would fix all this.
Now, I don't only want to blame Israel: Yasser Arafat bears a lot of the blame for deciding authenticity required his accepting, even championing, the self-destructive Second Intifada. But at this point the choices are the West recognizes Palestine, or the West acquiesces in the war crimes (that some call genocide) being perpetrated in Gaza and, with less exposure, the West Bank.
The West Bank and Gaza have been politically detached for over 18 years. I see no link between declaring of a state in the West Bank and ending the war in Gaza. Hamas are not negotiating for statehood. As for the Israelis, they do have multiple fiercely competing voices on what this war is about but the common string is the hostages. No one in the West Bank or indeed THE West has possibly anything to offer the hostages and to resolve this war whether a state is declared or not
On the contrary, it is perfectly clear (including in Israel) that the remaining hostages are not a major consideration in the current Israeli government's plans. The Franco-Saudi peace plan makes clear the hostages must be released immediately.
But your suggestion that Hamas be made to surrender in Gaza while settlers continue a campaign of violence in the West Bank is not a good one. It echoes how earlier, less serious, rebellions in Gaza have ended, and nothing resembling a permanent solution has come from it.
Hamas do not speak of WB settlers and in fact violence between Hamas and the PA in the West Bank is a major concern too. The assertion that the Israeli government is not prioritising the hostages seems to imply the matter is Netanyahu’s call. He has little leverage over Hamas.
Again, no one, except possibly you, thinks that Bibi is prioritizing rescue of the hostages. Even Bibi doesn't say he is.
The fact that Hamas doesn't speak about the pogroms being conducted by settlers does not mean these atrocities are not taking place, and most certainly does not mean they are fatal to a peaceful resolution.
I follow Israeli media and know for a fact there are strongly conflicting perspectives on what Bibi wants or what he can and cannot do. Earlier in the year, Hamas released hostages it held on for ten years in the absence of Bibi’s war and despite Bibi’s facilitation of Qatari funds. Peace and money could not entice them to release the hostages. You still think Netanyahu is not at their mercy?
Yes. Excellent comment. I think with international calls for two states the diplomatic pressure pushes both ways. Is Israel actually serious about two states? October 7 served as a pretext for more West Bank settlement, could the government coalesce to actually move or abandon 500k settlers? Regardless of how it ultimately plays out on the ground, international calls for two states force the hand of leaders of Israel and Palestine to show their true colors and willingness to compromise.
I'm somewhat surprised that no one is arguing against the two state "solution" – except maybe the other nearby countries. First, who's to govern the state? The Palestinians elected Hamas, and the record of the Palestinian Authority isn't very reassuring. Second, neither Jordan nor Eqypt want such a state anywhere near their borders. Third, as others have noted, this rewards Hamas for bad behavior, and they would certainly spin it this way. If you want something drastic, then "think colonial."
Thank you for laying this out in an articulate and informative way.
I personally am for recognizing, mostly because I believe a drastic change is needed to have an impact at this point. But I really appreciate the thoughtful approach here as it helped me better understand both perspectives.
I read within the past 6 months that a New Jersey synagogue was hosting an open house for realtors selling land in the West Bank - lands whose titles would be cloudy as swamp water in most of the USA. It's theft of Palestinian lands, and it's blatant, immoral, unethical, and maybe unlawful. It's certainly disgusting. Settlers have just beaten a kid to death. Will a Palestinian state have the judicial, political, and police power to evict the unlawful settlers?
Extremists on both sides have failed to crush the opposing side, despite their fiercest efforts. This 1938 Pathé newsreel summed it up perfectly: "once again, the irresistible force of Zionism meets the immovable object of Arab nationalism." Like it or loathe it, Israelis & Palestinians are stuck with each other for the foreseeable future.
What we seem to be talking about here is the moral equivalence of a supposedly ineffective Palestinian Authority versus the illegal activities of the Israeli state. Let’s grant for a moment that the PA’s ineffectiveness is due solely to its own fault and not in any way as a result of the Israeli demand that it collaborate with the illegal Israeli colonization of the West Bank.
Many nations around the world have ineffective government - that does not mean the legitimacy of a people’s right to self-determination is somehow diminished. To even posit that as a legitimate argument is morally repugnant.
On the other hand let’s look at the actions of Israel since 1967:
1. The state’s active financial and moral support for the 750,000 Israelis illegally living in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) in violation of international law. This represents not just an attempt to “out populate” Palestinians in their own land; it creates a illegal and discriminatory system where the colonists (I believe in calling things for what they are - the term “settlers” is a euphemism designed to obsfuscate what is actually happening on the ground) enjoy full rights as Israeli citizens while Palestinians are rendered stateless.
2. In 2018 the Nation-State Law gave a legal basis to what was already happening on the ground in Israel: the creation of second class citizenship for non-Jewish Israelis, who make up 20% of the population of Israel proper. Suffice it to say this kind of legal discrimination is an affront to human dignity and also a violation of basic human rights. Rather than go into detail here, you can go to this link: https://badil.org/publications/al-majdal/issues/items/1509.html
3. The Israeli state’s actions in Gaza constitute genocide by any reasonable definition. If certain ministers of the current government are to be believed, this is a prelude to the complete ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians from Gaza . For specific details: https://share.google/suJ8SzKXFRqK4zTeQ
I find it hard to believe that anyone of good conscience can see any moral equivalence.
No reasonable person condones the activities of Hamas, but they are not the Palestinian Authority nor are they a representative of the Palestinian people at large. They are a terrorist group that needs to be eliminated, but Israel’s current actions are not designed with that end in mind. Even generously granting that is the goal, Israel’s actions have been and continue to be disproportionate, ineffective and counterproductive.
For those that categorically seek to blame Palestinians for their own plight, I can only point out that a vote for Hamas in 2005 does not translate into support for their activities today twenty years later. Further, most inhabitants of Gaza today either were not alive or could not vote then.
Many Israelis posit the question “Do you believe Israel has the right to exist?” In reality this is an absurd question. No nation has a “right” to exist. Did the Soviet Union, French Algeria or apartheid South Africa have a right to exist? Of course not. All a nation can have is a claim on legitimacy. After WW2 the Soviet Union’s legitimacy rested on the defeat of Nazi Germany, which had set out to kill or enslave the Soviet population. Legitimacy based on historic fact, however, is temporal as the Politburo found out.
Israel’s claim to legitimacy is similarly temporal - a safe haven for Jewish people in the wake of the Holocaust. It appears today that Israel, through its actions, seems intent on undermining its own legitimacy as a democratic, law abiding country that protects the rights of its minorities and people in the territories it administers.
I believe in the founding purpose of the state of Israel, but the current leadership seems to be doing everything in its power to undermine that rationale.
Under these circumstances the least the developed nations of the West can do is join the other 147 nations that already recognize a Palestinian state.
Both Israelis and Palestinians have legitimate claims to the West Bank and so both must agree mutually on its future. The case for Gaza is different. Israel relinquished its claim to the land in 2005 so once the hostages are rescued and Hamas risk is downgraded then a demilitarised state is possible should Palestinian leadership there acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.
Gottesman: "recognizing Palestine...denies normalization to the Israeli occupation...seiz(ing) their neighbors sovereign territory" He apparently is ignorant of the fact that the last sovereign in "Palestine" was the British Mandate, and the Ottoman Empire previously. "Occupation" is a pejorative legally incorrect characterization. Epshtein: "laudable goal of a two state solution" that the Arabs rejected multiple times at least since 1936, and that Israelis now understand is suicidal. "Just because Hamas puts civilians in harm's way and seeks to maximize the civilian death toll does not mean Israel should help them achieive this goal" despite COL Kemp, MAJ John Spencer, the Global End Group and others findings that the civilian:combatant ratio is the lowest in the history of warfare (despite Hamas' use of human shields and the unprecedently challenging battlefield created by Hamas). Sadly Mr de M is either unaware of or amnestic of the deceitful premise of Oslo that would have created a culturally tolerant climate compatible with a two-state solution had it not been betrayed by Arafat, Abbas, ie Israel's putative "peace partners." Although Epshtein's position is more correct, neither author, nor Nick appears literate re: the documented history and legal status of the disputed territories. Regrettably this doesn't inhibit them from expressing their strongly held uninformed opinions.
It is clear that a 15% tariff is a tax on American companies and Americans themselves So whatever tariff is levied by Cheeto in his infinite stupidity is a tax against our own country
So far Cheeto claims that all this new found “tax money” is going to be a windfall for the economy But is it really? Since there is oversight as to the money that apparently goes into the Treasury how will that money be used? Since it hasn’t been under legislative auspices it begs the question as to how it will be used
Now that the Appeals court has in front of it a challenge to the legality of Cheeto’s ability to levy tariffs without Congressional approval and seems ready to take away Cheeto’s tariff plan, if the challenge is successful then the money will have to be repaid to American companies This is probably why companies right now are willing to pay the tariffs because sooner or later it will be coming back to them
The naïve thinking of those who believe a Palestinian state is the right thing at this time will be an enormous detriment to peace. After October 7, and knowing what the Palestinians in Gaza feel about Jews. The Palestinian state is impossible for two generations, and that is if they stop teaching hate and death in Palestinian schools.. The world needs to get by it. There are 56 Muslim countries and one Jewish state. You can't even fit the word Israel in that state on a map. Everyone must accept the reality they have seen in blood. The fact is that Palestinian Arabs want to Jews dead. I will not even accept the counterpoint to that the facts are so painfully true. Any external pressure to create a Palestinian state will only fail and cause more bloodshed. Will someone else read history? The Palestinians could've had a state six times at this point and have rejected it every time because they want Israel and Jews gone. Stop playing with history stop dreaming that humans will change overnight. Both Palestinian government organizations are overwhelmingly corrupt and have not allowed elections in 20 years. That's going to change now?
Accept there will never be a two state solution for 100 years. There cannot be. All of the horrific Palestinian deaths have been completely on the hands of Hamas and there is no other interpretation to this. This war could've ended in one day. They still hold hostages and dead bodies, dear God, please if you ever want peace this is not the way.
Recognizing a State of Palestine, which does not come without conditions, is welcome on ethical, historical and political grounds, and timing is not the issue. Now both Hamas and the Israeli government reject a two-state solution and can jeopardize any altogether. So, will the Palestinian Authority be able to reform itself without more delay, evince Hamas and convince its public opinion as well as Israelis' that a peaceful two-state solution is feasible ? Not without the support and active help of Arab and Western countries, for sure, and if other G20 countries could get involved, why not ? In other words, let's revive multilateralism, for God's sake !
The Arab states just called on Hamas to hand over power to the Palestinian authority in support of the 2 state solution. There’s no doubt that they conferred with the Palestinian Authority before making this declaration. I believe the statement even said they received support from the PA.
It’s a safe assumption that the PA is on board with removing Hamas and implementing the 2 state solution.
Yes. They are correct. I’ve been an extremely outspoken advocate for Israel, but the abandonment of the 2 state solution is not acceptable.
The Arab states surprised me this week by echoing my own feelings. Remove Hamas, then get recognized as a state. That would be a win for Israel, and an even bigger win for the rest of the world.
Netanyahu does not have Israel’s best interest in mind on this issue. Before Hamas took the exclave in 2008, there was much more optimism in Israel about making peace with Palestine.
I don’t care for the timing of the UK , Canada and France decisions, but I would betray myself if I argued against what they are doing here. I support the 2 state solution, so I support the recognition of Palestine. It’s never a good time to reject their statehood. That’s a terrible message to send to the world. Sovereignty does not come with conditions. Uriel has this messaging issue backwards.
Hamas might feel that this recognition is a gift for them right now, or they might pretend that it’s a gift, but they will come to understand that this whole concept is about removing them and handing off power to the PA.
Any and all discourse that breaks the anti-Israel stigma and forces antizionists to reckon with other worldviews is a huge win for society. These conversations are essential. Antizionists should be made to understand that Hamas is the only barrier to statehood, and their entire premise of genocide is an outrageous misunderstanding.
Edit: Israel being verbally opposed to a 2 state solution should not be treated like that option is off the table. It’s a negotiating stance. We need to compel them to realize this is their best chance to claim victory in Gaza. Nobody knows what they will agree on behind closed doors unless you’re in the room where it happens.
how do you negotiate a two-state solution with people who are largely against it and rejected half a dozen opportunities for peace, coexistence, and statehood over a hundred years? And who, instead, openly and unabashedly express support for the genocide of the Jewish people--in Israel and beyond? and how can you possibly negotiate a state without first negotiating a peace? what is the specific codified Palestinian peace proposal? In fact, has there ever been one? And with whom can it be negotiated in good faith? the PA? Hamas? The people who built and financed the pay-for-slay program? Who make sure schoolbooks and children's shows refer to Jews as apes, pigs, devils, and cockroaches? Who teach their children that the most noble pursuit is not to become a lawyer, doctor, or engineer--but to murder, rape, and kidnap Jews?
Nothing will change until their culture changes. Look at the peace treaties with Morocco, Bahrain, Sudan, UAE, (almost Saudi Arabia) and of course, Jordan and Egypt. Israel wants peace. Negotiated in good faith at every opportunity. Returned a significant amount of land in exchange for that peace, including Gaza. Arguably, the little 'two state experiment that failed.'
What you and I think about a two-state or one-state solution is irrelevant in practical terms. I used to support it. But Palestinians are largely against it. And while I don't care for Bibi, I reject the notion that he doesn't have Israel's best interest at heart. He just has a different opinion about Israel's long-term security, arguably reinforced by Oct 7th (unless we go out of our way to confuse or reverse cause and effect). And let's be objective for a moment and consider the state of Israel's long term security today vs October 6th 2023. Hamas is lame or on its last legs. It lost the support of Arab and Gulf states. Hezbollah has been eviscerated. Iran was crippled and on the precipice of a counter revolution. Its nuclear program is severely damaged or delayed. And when you think about it, and despite the rabid global jew hatred (because who likes Jews when they win), not least in Europe, Israel is ironically in a better position today (i.e. safer and more secure) than it has EVER been. There will be more wars and sacrifices, sadly, but on balance, there is no better, freer place to be in the middle east--for Jews, Christians, Arabs, religious and ethnic minorities, women, homosexuals, etc. And even when you count the unnecessary death of Jews since the Holocaust from all the wars and intifadas and terror attacks, the number pales in comparison to what it would be for Jews without Israel.
If Palestinians are against the 2 state solution, then the best thing we can do is make them publicly confess that they do not want this. By recognizing the 2 state solution, it puts the ball back in Palestine’s court. If they reject the notion outright, then you are correct and we move forward without this idea.
This is about winning back the hearts and minds who were led astray by Islamic propaganda into supporting a far-right Hamas movement. If they see that Palestine doesn’t even want a 2 state solution despite our efforts, then we’ve successfully called the bluff of antizionism, and their movement loses a great deal of influence.
I empathize with most of what you have written here, but the people getting news from other sources will never see it this way unless we make them see it by trying to call their bluffs.
This discourse forces antizionists out of their echo chamber of hatred, and forces them to reckon with our worldviews. They must learn that their genocide claims against Israel are a disgusting falsehood. Israeli support for a 2 state solution would silence this accusation once and for all.
Israel has 2 stated formal goals in this war since Oct 8, 2023. 1) Free all hostages, and 2) Remove Hamas. The 2 state solution is not a threat to these goals, it’s the best option they have to realize these goals. For the first time ever, the Arab states seem to agree. I don’t believe that it’s a coincidence that the Arab statement was released just days after Hamas rejected another proposal in Doha. They’re fed up too.
You have to make up your mind. You can't laud the peace treaties with most of the Arab states, and still say the Arabs aren't interested in a two-state solution. It's Israel (or at least its current government) that has no interest in a two-state solution, nor in any solution that involves full citizenship for non-Jews in the West Bank. Don't take my work for it: it's in their coalition agreement. The other 21 Arab states can drag the Palestinians into an agreement, as long as it's fair. But it will take the EU and USA to drag the Israeli nationalists back to civilization from the apartheid and ethnic cleansing that their own cabinet has announced is their planned endgame.
You are correct not to listen to what Israel says. Down South there’s a saying “Don’t listen to what I say, listen to what I do.” By that standard Israel has shown over the decades it has no interest in a two state solution.
The continuing colonization of the West Bank by Israel bears much similarity to the French in Algeria, where the French colons enjoyed full rights as French citizens while Algerians were rendered second class citizens in their own country. Similarly Israel has actively encouraged the colonization in the West Bank through heavy financial subsidies, legally dubious land seizures, and the internal displacement of Palestinians in their own land.
Further, as a condition of previous agreements Israel has forced the Palestinian Authority to collaborate in this blatantly illegal scheme. Israel has all but rendered the Palestinians in the territory Israel administers, whether directly or through the PA, stateless.
These are not the actions of a country interested in a two state solution. If you need any further evidence, look to what’s happening in Gaza now. How Israel ever hopes to make peace after what it has done there is beyond me.
Israel is no longer the state it was in 1948. For those that support Israel the sooner you come to that realization the better it will be for a nation that now seems intent on destroying its own legitimacy.
I was hoping that Mr. Kasparov with his brain power, cultural and ethnic background would be voice of reason. But bringing this topic up for discussion, proved me wrong. Time to unsubscribe and look for voice of reason somewhere else.
Recognition has been decades in the making, not some suddenly recent fad. It would have to be backed up with a multi-lateral stabilisation force and international law being allowed to do its job.
For over fifty years, Israeli nationalists have been creating facts on the ground to prevent any sort of feasible Palestinian state, leaving apartheid and ethnic cleansing as the options going forward. For various geopolitical and historical reasons, the West accepted this, partly in the hope that the peace that was always just over the horizon would fix all this.
Now, I don't only want to blame Israel: Yasser Arafat bears a lot of the blame for deciding authenticity required his accepting, even championing, the self-destructive Second Intifada. But at this point the choices are the West recognizes Palestine, or the West acquiesces in the war crimes (that some call genocide) being perpetrated in Gaza and, with less exposure, the West Bank.
The West Bank and Gaza have been politically detached for over 18 years. I see no link between declaring of a state in the West Bank and ending the war in Gaza. Hamas are not negotiating for statehood. As for the Israelis, they do have multiple fiercely competing voices on what this war is about but the common string is the hostages. No one in the West Bank or indeed THE West has possibly anything to offer the hostages and to resolve this war whether a state is declared or not
On the contrary, it is perfectly clear (including in Israel) that the remaining hostages are not a major consideration in the current Israeli government's plans. The Franco-Saudi peace plan makes clear the hostages must be released immediately.
But your suggestion that Hamas be made to surrender in Gaza while settlers continue a campaign of violence in the West Bank is not a good one. It echoes how earlier, less serious, rebellions in Gaza have ended, and nothing resembling a permanent solution has come from it.
Hamas do not speak of WB settlers and in fact violence between Hamas and the PA in the West Bank is a major concern too. The assertion that the Israeli government is not prioritising the hostages seems to imply the matter is Netanyahu’s call. He has little leverage over Hamas.
Again, no one, except possibly you, thinks that Bibi is prioritizing rescue of the hostages. Even Bibi doesn't say he is.
The fact that Hamas doesn't speak about the pogroms being conducted by settlers does not mean these atrocities are not taking place, and most certainly does not mean they are fatal to a peaceful resolution.
I follow Israeli media and know for a fact there are strongly conflicting perspectives on what Bibi wants or what he can and cannot do. Earlier in the year, Hamas released hostages it held on for ten years in the absence of Bibi’s war and despite Bibi’s facilitation of Qatari funds. Peace and money could not entice them to release the hostages. You still think Netanyahu is not at their mercy?
Yes. Excellent comment. I think with international calls for two states the diplomatic pressure pushes both ways. Is Israel actually serious about two states? October 7 served as a pretext for more West Bank settlement, could the government coalesce to actually move or abandon 500k settlers? Regardless of how it ultimately plays out on the ground, international calls for two states force the hand of leaders of Israel and Palestine to show their true colors and willingness to compromise.
I'm somewhat surprised that no one is arguing against the two state "solution" – except maybe the other nearby countries. First, who's to govern the state? The Palestinians elected Hamas, and the record of the Palestinian Authority isn't very reassuring. Second, neither Jordan nor Eqypt want such a state anywhere near their borders. Third, as others have noted, this rewards Hamas for bad behavior, and they would certainly spin it this way. If you want something drastic, then "think colonial."
Thank you for laying this out in an articulate and informative way.
I personally am for recognizing, mostly because I believe a drastic change is needed to have an impact at this point. But I really appreciate the thoughtful approach here as it helped me better understand both perspectives.
I read within the past 6 months that a New Jersey synagogue was hosting an open house for realtors selling land in the West Bank - lands whose titles would be cloudy as swamp water in most of the USA. It's theft of Palestinian lands, and it's blatant, immoral, unethical, and maybe unlawful. It's certainly disgusting. Settlers have just beaten a kid to death. Will a Palestinian state have the judicial, political, and police power to evict the unlawful settlers?
Isn't it a bit late? I mean, clearly the Israeli goal is to not have a Palestinian living in Israel, Gaza or the West Bank.
Extremists on both sides have failed to crush the opposing side, despite their fiercest efforts. This 1938 Pathé newsreel summed it up perfectly: "once again, the irresistible force of Zionism meets the immovable object of Arab nationalism." Like it or loathe it, Israelis & Palestinians are stuck with each other for the foreseeable future.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-qMO4hk0aQ
What we seem to be talking about here is the moral equivalence of a supposedly ineffective Palestinian Authority versus the illegal activities of the Israeli state. Let’s grant for a moment that the PA’s ineffectiveness is due solely to its own fault and not in any way as a result of the Israeli demand that it collaborate with the illegal Israeli colonization of the West Bank.
Many nations around the world have ineffective government - that does not mean the legitimacy of a people’s right to self-determination is somehow diminished. To even posit that as a legitimate argument is morally repugnant.
On the other hand let’s look at the actions of Israel since 1967:
1. The state’s active financial and moral support for the 750,000 Israelis illegally living in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) in violation of international law. This represents not just an attempt to “out populate” Palestinians in their own land; it creates a illegal and discriminatory system where the colonists (I believe in calling things for what they are - the term “settlers” is a euphemism designed to obsfuscate what is actually happening on the ground) enjoy full rights as Israeli citizens while Palestinians are rendered stateless.
2. In 2018 the Nation-State Law gave a legal basis to what was already happening on the ground in Israel: the creation of second class citizenship for non-Jewish Israelis, who make up 20% of the population of Israel proper. Suffice it to say this kind of legal discrimination is an affront to human dignity and also a violation of basic human rights. Rather than go into detail here, you can go to this link: https://badil.org/publications/al-majdal/issues/items/1509.html
3. The Israeli state’s actions in Gaza constitute genocide by any reasonable definition. If certain ministers of the current government are to be believed, this is a prelude to the complete ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians from Gaza . For specific details: https://share.google/suJ8SzKXFRqK4zTeQ
I find it hard to believe that anyone of good conscience can see any moral equivalence.
No reasonable person condones the activities of Hamas, but they are not the Palestinian Authority nor are they a representative of the Palestinian people at large. They are a terrorist group that needs to be eliminated, but Israel’s current actions are not designed with that end in mind. Even generously granting that is the goal, Israel’s actions have been and continue to be disproportionate, ineffective and counterproductive.
For those that categorically seek to blame Palestinians for their own plight, I can only point out that a vote for Hamas in 2005 does not translate into support for their activities today twenty years later. Further, most inhabitants of Gaza today either were not alive or could not vote then.
Many Israelis posit the question “Do you believe Israel has the right to exist?” In reality this is an absurd question. No nation has a “right” to exist. Did the Soviet Union, French Algeria or apartheid South Africa have a right to exist? Of course not. All a nation can have is a claim on legitimacy. After WW2 the Soviet Union’s legitimacy rested on the defeat of Nazi Germany, which had set out to kill or enslave the Soviet population. Legitimacy based on historic fact, however, is temporal as the Politburo found out.
Israel’s claim to legitimacy is similarly temporal - a safe haven for Jewish people in the wake of the Holocaust. It appears today that Israel, through its actions, seems intent on undermining its own legitimacy as a democratic, law abiding country that protects the rights of its minorities and people in the territories it administers.
I believe in the founding purpose of the state of Israel, but the current leadership seems to be doing everything in its power to undermine that rationale.
Under these circumstances the least the developed nations of the West can do is join the other 147 nations that already recognize a Palestinian state.
Both Israelis and Palestinians have legitimate claims to the West Bank and so both must agree mutually on its future. The case for Gaza is different. Israel relinquished its claim to the land in 2005 so once the hostages are rescued and Hamas risk is downgraded then a demilitarised state is possible should Palestinian leadership there acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.
Recognition of Palestine by nations like France, Australia, and Canada is the morally correct move.
Gottesman: "recognizing Palestine...denies normalization to the Israeli occupation...seiz(ing) their neighbors sovereign territory" He apparently is ignorant of the fact that the last sovereign in "Palestine" was the British Mandate, and the Ottoman Empire previously. "Occupation" is a pejorative legally incorrect characterization. Epshtein: "laudable goal of a two state solution" that the Arabs rejected multiple times at least since 1936, and that Israelis now understand is suicidal. "Just because Hamas puts civilians in harm's way and seeks to maximize the civilian death toll does not mean Israel should help them achieive this goal" despite COL Kemp, MAJ John Spencer, the Global End Group and others findings that the civilian:combatant ratio is the lowest in the history of warfare (despite Hamas' use of human shields and the unprecedently challenging battlefield created by Hamas). Sadly Mr de M is either unaware of or amnestic of the deceitful premise of Oslo that would have created a culturally tolerant climate compatible with a two-state solution had it not been betrayed by Arafat, Abbas, ie Israel's putative "peace partners." Although Epshtein's position is more correct, neither author, nor Nick appears literate re: the documented history and legal status of the disputed territories. Regrettably this doesn't inhibit them from expressing their strongly held uninformed opinions.
Is Cheeto Creating His Own Government Slush Fund?
It is clear that a 15% tariff is a tax on American companies and Americans themselves So whatever tariff is levied by Cheeto in his infinite stupidity is a tax against our own country
So far Cheeto claims that all this new found “tax money” is going to be a windfall for the economy But is it really? Since there is oversight as to the money that apparently goes into the Treasury how will that money be used? Since it hasn’t been under legislative auspices it begs the question as to how it will be used
Now that the Appeals court has in front of it a challenge to the legality of Cheeto’s ability to levy tariffs without Congressional approval and seems ready to take away Cheeto’s tariff plan, if the challenge is successful then the money will have to be repaid to American companies This is probably why companies right now are willing to pay the tariffs because sooner or later it will be coming back to them
The naïve thinking of those who believe a Palestinian state is the right thing at this time will be an enormous detriment to peace. After October 7, and knowing what the Palestinians in Gaza feel about Jews. The Palestinian state is impossible for two generations, and that is if they stop teaching hate and death in Palestinian schools.. The world needs to get by it. There are 56 Muslim countries and one Jewish state. You can't even fit the word Israel in that state on a map. Everyone must accept the reality they have seen in blood. The fact is that Palestinian Arabs want to Jews dead. I will not even accept the counterpoint to that the facts are so painfully true. Any external pressure to create a Palestinian state will only fail and cause more bloodshed. Will someone else read history? The Palestinians could've had a state six times at this point and have rejected it every time because they want Israel and Jews gone. Stop playing with history stop dreaming that humans will change overnight. Both Palestinian government organizations are overwhelmingly corrupt and have not allowed elections in 20 years. That's going to change now?
Accept there will never be a two state solution for 100 years. There cannot be. All of the horrific Palestinian deaths have been completely on the hands of Hamas and there is no other interpretation to this. This war could've ended in one day. They still hold hostages and dead bodies, dear God, please if you ever want peace this is not the way.