Recognizing a State of Palestine, which does not come without conditions, is welcome on ethical, historical and political grounds, and timing is not the issue. Now both Hamas and the Israeli government reject a two-state solution and can jeopardize any altogether. So, will the Palestinian Authority be able to reform itself without more delay, evince Hamas and convince its public opinion as well as Israelis' that a peaceful two-state solution is feasible ? Not without the support and active help of Arab and Western countries, for sure, and if other G20 countries could get involved, why not ? In other words, let's revive multilateralism, for God's sake !
I was hoping that Mr. Kasparov with his brain power, cultural and ethnic background would be voice of reason. But bringing this topic up for discussion, proved me wrong. Time to unsubscribe and look for voice of reason somewhere else.
For over fifty years, Israeli nationalists have been creating facts on the ground to prevent any sort of feasible Palestinian state, leaving apartheid and ethnic cleansing as the options going forward. For various geopolitical and historical reasons, the West accepted this, partly in the hope that the peace that was always just over the horizon would fix all this.
Now, I don't only want to blame Israel: Yasser Arafat bears a lot of the blame for deciding authenticity required his accepting, even championing, the self-destructive Second Intifada. But at this point the choices are the West recognizes Palestine, or the West acquiesces in the war crimes (that some call genocide) being perpetrated in Gaza and, with less exposure, the West Bank.
The West Bank and Gaza have been politically detached for over 18 years. I see no link between declaring of a state in the West Bank and ending the war in Gaza. Hamas are not negotiating for statehood. As for the Israelis, they do have multiple fiercely competing voices on what this war is about but the common string is the hostages. No one in the West Bank or indeed THE West has possibly anything to offer the hostages and to resolve this war whether a state is declared or not
On the contrary, it is perfectly clear (including in Israel) that the remaining hostages are not a major consideration in the current Israeli government's plans. The Franco-Saudi peace plan makes clear the hostages must be released immediately.
But your suggestion that Hamas be made to surrender in Gaza while settlers continue a campaign of violence in the West Bank is not a good one. It echoes how earlier, less serious, rebellions in Gaza have ended, and nothing resembling a permanent solution has come from it.
Hamas do not speak of WB settlers and in fact violence between Hamas and the PA in the West Bank is a major concern too. The assertion that the Israeli government is not prioritising the hostages seems to imply the matter is Netanyahu’s call. He has little leverage over Hamas.
Again, no one, except possibly you, thinks that Bibi is prioritizing rescue of the hostages. Even Bibi doesn't say he is.
The fact that Hamas doesn't speak about the pogroms being conducted by settlers does not mean these atrocities are not taking place, and most certainly does not mean they are fatal to a peaceful resolution.
I follow Israeli media and know for a fact there are strongly conflicting perspectives on what Bibi wants or what he can and cannot do. Earlier in the year, Hamas released hostages it held on for ten years in the absence of Bibi’s war and despite Bibi’s facilitation of Qatari funds. Peace and money could not entice them to release the hostages. You still think Netanyahu is not at their mercy?
I'm somewhat surprised that no one is arguing against the two state "solution" – except maybe the other nearby countries. First, who's to govern the state? The Palestinians elected Hamas, and the record of the Palestinian Authority isn't very reassuring. Second, neither Jordan nor Eqypt want such a state anywhere near their borders. Third, as others have noted, this rewards Hamas for bad behavior, and they would certainly spin it this way. If you want something drastic, then "think colonial."
The naïve thinking of those who believe a Palestinian state is the right thing at this time will be an enormous detriment to peace. After October 7, and knowing what the Palestinians in Gaza feel about Jews. The Palestinian state is impossible for two generations, and that is if they stop teaching hate and death in Palestinian schools.. The world needs to get by it. There are 56 Muslim countries and one Jewish state. You can't even fit the word Israel in that state on a map. Everyone must accept the reality they have seen in blood. The fact is that Palestinian Arabs want to Jews dead. I will not even accept the counterpoint to that the facts are so painfully true. Any external pressure to create a Palestinian state will only fail and cause more bloodshed. Will someone else read history? The Palestinians could've had a state six times at this point and have rejected it every time because they want Israel and Jews gone. Stop playing with history stop dreaming that humans will change overnight. Both Palestinian government organizations are overwhelmingly corrupt and have not allowed elections in 20 years. That's going to change now?
Accept there will never be a two state solution for 100 years. There cannot be. All of the horrific Palestinian deaths have been completely on the hands of Hamas and there is no other interpretation to this. This war could've ended in one day. They still hold hostages and dead bodies, dear God, please if you ever want peace this is not the way.
So, in response to starving, raping, torturing, and murdering Jews--and celebrating it--Europe is more or less unified in rewarding the Palestinians with a second state (Jordan) with, for the first time in history, no obligations or requirements as delineated in the UN Charter.
That's stupid and deranged enough. But here's the real world problem: it is all but guarantees Hamas will take over most of the W. Bank, which is 20x larger than Gaza. Will lead to another Iran-like theocracy and the 58th Muslim state? And finally and inevitably, another catastrophic war in which many Arabs and Israelis will die.
But it gets worse. After Hamas and the IslamoLeft conspire to sacrifice another 50-100,000 Palestinians or more, it will be Israel's turn to go biblical: and they will institute a unilateral partition plan that drives every single one into... wait for it... Palestine (Jordan). And of course, everyone will blame Israel for defending itself in the 12th or 13th war of annihilation it didn't start. And I guess that's really the point. To keep 2000+ years of Jew hatred going and never allow the Jews to live in peace.
And with a genocidal, anti-Jewish rap sheet a mile long, not a surprise entirely that it's being pushed by Europe, even as Muslim / Gulf states look to make peace and focus on modernization and moving into the 21st century
There is no case for "recognizing Palestine." An international basket case that would instantly become a terror state. They have never negotiated in good faith over the last 30 years of Oslo. And after every murder spree or atrocity they have been rewarded with calls for a Palestinian state.
Thank you for laying this out in an articulate and informative way.
I personally am for recognizing, mostly because I believe a drastic change is needed to have an impact at this point. But I really appreciate the thoughtful approach here as it helped me better understand both perspectives.
Recognition has been decades in the making, not some suddenly recent fad. It would have to be backed up with a multi-lateral stabilisation force and international law being allowed to do its job.
What we seem to be talking about here is the moral equivalence of a supposedly ineffective Palestinian Authority versus the illegal activities of the Israeli state. Let’s grant for a moment that the PA’s ineffectiveness is due solely to its own fault and not in any way as a result of the Israeli demand that it collaborate with the illegal Israeli colonization of the West Bank.
Many nations around the world have ineffective government - that does not mean the legitimacy of a people’s right to self-determination is somehow diminished. To even posit that as a legitimate argument is morally repugnant.
On the other hand let’s look at the actions of Israel since 1967:
1. The state’s active financial and moral support for the 750,000 Israelis illegally living in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) in violation of international law. This represents not just an attempt to “out populate” Palestinians in their own land; it creates a illegal and discriminatory system where the colonists (I believe in calling things for what they are - the term “settlers” is a euphemism designed to obsfuscate what is actually happening on the ground) enjoy full rights as Israeli citizens while Palestinians are rendered stateless.
2. In 2018 the Nation-State Law gave a legal basis to what was already happening on the ground in Israel: the creation of second class citizenship for non-Jewish Israelis, who make up 20% of the population of Israel proper. Suffice it to say this kind of legal discrimination is an affront to human dignity and also a violation of basic human rights. Rather than go into detail here, you can go to this link: https://badil.org/publications/al-majdal/issues/items/1509.html
3. The Israeli state’s actions in Gaza constitute genocide by any reasonable definition. If certain ministers of the current government are to be believed, this is a prelude to the complete ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians from Gaza . For specific details: https://share.google/suJ8SzKXFRqK4zTeQ
I find it hard to believe that anyone of good conscience can see any moral equivalence.
No reasonable person condones the activities of Hamas, but they are not the Palestinian Authority nor are they a representative of the Palestinian people at large. They are a terrorist group that needs to be eliminated, but Israel’s current actions are not designed with that end in mind. Even generously granting that is the goal, Israel’s actions have been and continue to be disproportionate, ineffective and counterproductive.
For those that categorically seek to blame Palestinians for their own plight, I can only point out that a vote for Hamas in 2005 does not translate into support for their activities today twenty years later. Further, most inhabitants of Gaza today either were not alive or could not vote then.
Many Israelis posit the question “Do you believe Israel has the right to exist?” In reality this is an absurd question. No nation has a “right” to exist. Did the Soviet Union, French Algeria or apartheid South Africa have a right to exist? Of course not. All a nation can have is a claim on legitimacy. After WW2 the Soviet Union’s legitimacy rested on the defeat of Nazi Germany, which had set out to kill or enslave the Soviet population. Legitimacy based on historic fact, however, is temporal as the Politburo found out.
Israel’s claim to legitimacy is similarly temporal - a safe haven for Jewish people in the wake of the Holocaust. It appears today that Israel, through its actions, seems intent on undermining its own legitimacy as a democratic, law abiding country that protects the rights of its minorities and people in the territories it administers.
I believe in the founding purpose of the state of Israel, but the current leadership seems to be doing everything in its power to undermine that rationale.
Under these circumstances the least the developed nations of the West can do is join the other 147 nations that already recognize a Palestinian state.
Both Israelis and Palestinians have legitimate claims to the West Bank and so both must agree mutually on its future. The case for Gaza is different. Israel relinquished its claim to the land in 2005 so once the hostages are rescued and Hamas risk is downgraded then a demilitarised state is possible should Palestinian leadership there acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.
Gottesman: "recognizing Palestine...denies normalization to the Israeli occupation...seiz(ing) their neighbors sovereign territory" He apparently is ignorant of the fact that the last sovereign in "Palestine" was the British Mandate, and the Ottoman Empire previously. "Occupation" is a pejorative legally incorrect characterization. Epshtein: "laudable goal of a two state solution" that the Arabs rejected multiple times at least since 1936, and that Israelis now understand is suicidal. "Just because Hamas puts civilians in harm's way and seeks to maximize the civilian death toll does not mean Israel should help them achieive this goal" despite COL Kemp, MAJ John Spencer, the Global End Group and others findings that the civilian:combatant ratio is the lowest in the history of warfare (despite Hamas' use of human shields and the unprecedently challenging battlefield created by Hamas). Sadly Mr de M is either unaware of or amnestic of the deceitful premise of Oslo that would have created a culturally tolerant climate compatible with a two-state solution had it not been betrayed by Arafat, Abbas, ie Israel's putative "peace partners." Although Epshtein's position is more correct, neither author, nor Nick appears literate re: the documented history and legal status of the disputed territories. Regrettably this doesn't inhibit them from expressing their strongly held uninformed opinions.
Yes. Excellent comment. I think with international calls for two states the diplomatic pressure pushes both ways. Is Israel actually serious about two states? October 7 served as a pretext for more West Bank settlement, could the government coalesce to actually move or abandon 500k settlers? Regardless of how it ultimately plays out on the ground, international calls for two states force the hand of leaders of Israel and Palestine to show their true colors and willingness to compromise.
Let’s suspend disbelief in the 2 state delusion and imagine there was a new state of Palestine (even though Arabic does not have a P.). What would it resemble and what would be the outcome?
I read within the past 6 months that a New Jersey synagogue was hosting an open house for realtors selling land in the West Bank - lands whose titles would be cloudy as swamp water in most of the USA. It's theft of Palestinian lands, and it's blatant, immoral, unethical, and maybe unlawful. It's certainly disgusting. Settlers have just beaten a kid to death. Will a Palestinian state have the judicial, political, and police power to evict the unlawful settlers?
Extremists on both sides have failed to crush the opposing side, despite their fiercest efforts. This 1938 Pathé newsreel summed it up perfectly: "once again, the irresistible force of Zionism meets the immovable object of Arab nationalism." Like it or loathe it, Israelis & Palestinians are stuck with each other for the foreseeable future.
Recognizing a State of Palestine, which does not come without conditions, is welcome on ethical, historical and political grounds, and timing is not the issue. Now both Hamas and the Israeli government reject a two-state solution and can jeopardize any altogether. So, will the Palestinian Authority be able to reform itself without more delay, evince Hamas and convince its public opinion as well as Israelis' that a peaceful two-state solution is feasible ? Not without the support and active help of Arab and Western countries, for sure, and if other G20 countries could get involved, why not ? In other words, let's revive multilateralism, for God's sake !
I was hoping that Mr. Kasparov with his brain power, cultural and ethnic background would be voice of reason. But bringing this topic up for discussion, proved me wrong. Time to unsubscribe and look for voice of reason somewhere else.
For over fifty years, Israeli nationalists have been creating facts on the ground to prevent any sort of feasible Palestinian state, leaving apartheid and ethnic cleansing as the options going forward. For various geopolitical and historical reasons, the West accepted this, partly in the hope that the peace that was always just over the horizon would fix all this.
Now, I don't only want to blame Israel: Yasser Arafat bears a lot of the blame for deciding authenticity required his accepting, even championing, the self-destructive Second Intifada. But at this point the choices are the West recognizes Palestine, or the West acquiesces in the war crimes (that some call genocide) being perpetrated in Gaza and, with less exposure, the West Bank.
The West Bank and Gaza have been politically detached for over 18 years. I see no link between declaring of a state in the West Bank and ending the war in Gaza. Hamas are not negotiating for statehood. As for the Israelis, they do have multiple fiercely competing voices on what this war is about but the common string is the hostages. No one in the West Bank or indeed THE West has possibly anything to offer the hostages and to resolve this war whether a state is declared or not
On the contrary, it is perfectly clear (including in Israel) that the remaining hostages are not a major consideration in the current Israeli government's plans. The Franco-Saudi peace plan makes clear the hostages must be released immediately.
But your suggestion that Hamas be made to surrender in Gaza while settlers continue a campaign of violence in the West Bank is not a good one. It echoes how earlier, less serious, rebellions in Gaza have ended, and nothing resembling a permanent solution has come from it.
Hamas do not speak of WB settlers and in fact violence between Hamas and the PA in the West Bank is a major concern too. The assertion that the Israeli government is not prioritising the hostages seems to imply the matter is Netanyahu’s call. He has little leverage over Hamas.
Again, no one, except possibly you, thinks that Bibi is prioritizing rescue of the hostages. Even Bibi doesn't say he is.
The fact that Hamas doesn't speak about the pogroms being conducted by settlers does not mean these atrocities are not taking place, and most certainly does not mean they are fatal to a peaceful resolution.
I follow Israeli media and know for a fact there are strongly conflicting perspectives on what Bibi wants or what he can and cannot do. Earlier in the year, Hamas released hostages it held on for ten years in the absence of Bibi’s war and despite Bibi’s facilitation of Qatari funds. Peace and money could not entice them to release the hostages. You still think Netanyahu is not at their mercy?
I'm somewhat surprised that no one is arguing against the two state "solution" – except maybe the other nearby countries. First, who's to govern the state? The Palestinians elected Hamas, and the record of the Palestinian Authority isn't very reassuring. Second, neither Jordan nor Eqypt want such a state anywhere near their borders. Third, as others have noted, this rewards Hamas for bad behavior, and they would certainly spin it this way. If you want something drastic, then "think colonial."
The naïve thinking of those who believe a Palestinian state is the right thing at this time will be an enormous detriment to peace. After October 7, and knowing what the Palestinians in Gaza feel about Jews. The Palestinian state is impossible for two generations, and that is if they stop teaching hate and death in Palestinian schools.. The world needs to get by it. There are 56 Muslim countries and one Jewish state. You can't even fit the word Israel in that state on a map. Everyone must accept the reality they have seen in blood. The fact is that Palestinian Arabs want to Jews dead. I will not even accept the counterpoint to that the facts are so painfully true. Any external pressure to create a Palestinian state will only fail and cause more bloodshed. Will someone else read history? The Palestinians could've had a state six times at this point and have rejected it every time because they want Israel and Jews gone. Stop playing with history stop dreaming that humans will change overnight. Both Palestinian government organizations are overwhelmingly corrupt and have not allowed elections in 20 years. That's going to change now?
Accept there will never be a two state solution for 100 years. There cannot be. All of the horrific Palestinian deaths have been completely on the hands of Hamas and there is no other interpretation to this. This war could've ended in one day. They still hold hostages and dead bodies, dear God, please if you ever want peace this is not the way.
So, in response to starving, raping, torturing, and murdering Jews--and celebrating it--Europe is more or less unified in rewarding the Palestinians with a second state (Jordan) with, for the first time in history, no obligations or requirements as delineated in the UN Charter.
That's stupid and deranged enough. But here's the real world problem: it is all but guarantees Hamas will take over most of the W. Bank, which is 20x larger than Gaza. Will lead to another Iran-like theocracy and the 58th Muslim state? And finally and inevitably, another catastrophic war in which many Arabs and Israelis will die.
But it gets worse. After Hamas and the IslamoLeft conspire to sacrifice another 50-100,000 Palestinians or more, it will be Israel's turn to go biblical: and they will institute a unilateral partition plan that drives every single one into... wait for it... Palestine (Jordan). And of course, everyone will blame Israel for defending itself in the 12th or 13th war of annihilation it didn't start. And I guess that's really the point. To keep 2000+ years of Jew hatred going and never allow the Jews to live in peace.
And with a genocidal, anti-Jewish rap sheet a mile long, not a surprise entirely that it's being pushed by Europe, even as Muslim / Gulf states look to make peace and focus on modernization and moving into the 21st century
There is no case for "recognizing Palestine." An international basket case that would instantly become a terror state. They have never negotiated in good faith over the last 30 years of Oslo. And after every murder spree or atrocity they have been rewarded with calls for a Palestinian state.
Thank you for laying this out in an articulate and informative way.
I personally am for recognizing, mostly because I believe a drastic change is needed to have an impact at this point. But I really appreciate the thoughtful approach here as it helped me better understand both perspectives.
Recognition has been decades in the making, not some suddenly recent fad. It would have to be backed up with a multi-lateral stabilisation force and international law being allowed to do its job.
What we seem to be talking about here is the moral equivalence of a supposedly ineffective Palestinian Authority versus the illegal activities of the Israeli state. Let’s grant for a moment that the PA’s ineffectiveness is due solely to its own fault and not in any way as a result of the Israeli demand that it collaborate with the illegal Israeli colonization of the West Bank.
Many nations around the world have ineffective government - that does not mean the legitimacy of a people’s right to self-determination is somehow diminished. To even posit that as a legitimate argument is morally repugnant.
On the other hand let’s look at the actions of Israel since 1967:
1. The state’s active financial and moral support for the 750,000 Israelis illegally living in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) in violation of international law. This represents not just an attempt to “out populate” Palestinians in their own land; it creates a illegal and discriminatory system where the colonists (I believe in calling things for what they are - the term “settlers” is a euphemism designed to obsfuscate what is actually happening on the ground) enjoy full rights as Israeli citizens while Palestinians are rendered stateless.
2. In 2018 the Nation-State Law gave a legal basis to what was already happening on the ground in Israel: the creation of second class citizenship for non-Jewish Israelis, who make up 20% of the population of Israel proper. Suffice it to say this kind of legal discrimination is an affront to human dignity and also a violation of basic human rights. Rather than go into detail here, you can go to this link: https://badil.org/publications/al-majdal/issues/items/1509.html
3. The Israeli state’s actions in Gaza constitute genocide by any reasonable definition. If certain ministers of the current government are to be believed, this is a prelude to the complete ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians from Gaza . For specific details: https://share.google/suJ8SzKXFRqK4zTeQ
I find it hard to believe that anyone of good conscience can see any moral equivalence.
No reasonable person condones the activities of Hamas, but they are not the Palestinian Authority nor are they a representative of the Palestinian people at large. They are a terrorist group that needs to be eliminated, but Israel’s current actions are not designed with that end in mind. Even generously granting that is the goal, Israel’s actions have been and continue to be disproportionate, ineffective and counterproductive.
For those that categorically seek to blame Palestinians for their own plight, I can only point out that a vote for Hamas in 2005 does not translate into support for their activities today twenty years later. Further, most inhabitants of Gaza today either were not alive or could not vote then.
Many Israelis posit the question “Do you believe Israel has the right to exist?” In reality this is an absurd question. No nation has a “right” to exist. Did the Soviet Union, French Algeria or apartheid South Africa have a right to exist? Of course not. All a nation can have is a claim on legitimacy. After WW2 the Soviet Union’s legitimacy rested on the defeat of Nazi Germany, which had set out to kill or enslave the Soviet population. Legitimacy based on historic fact, however, is temporal as the Politburo found out.
Israel’s claim to legitimacy is similarly temporal - a safe haven for Jewish people in the wake of the Holocaust. It appears today that Israel, through its actions, seems intent on undermining its own legitimacy as a democratic, law abiding country that protects the rights of its minorities and people in the territories it administers.
I believe in the founding purpose of the state of Israel, but the current leadership seems to be doing everything in its power to undermine that rationale.
Under these circumstances the least the developed nations of the West can do is join the other 147 nations that already recognize a Palestinian state.
Both Israelis and Palestinians have legitimate claims to the West Bank and so both must agree mutually on its future. The case for Gaza is different. Israel relinquished its claim to the land in 2005 so once the hostages are rescued and Hamas risk is downgraded then a demilitarised state is possible should Palestinian leadership there acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.
Gottesman: "recognizing Palestine...denies normalization to the Israeli occupation...seiz(ing) their neighbors sovereign territory" He apparently is ignorant of the fact that the last sovereign in "Palestine" was the British Mandate, and the Ottoman Empire previously. "Occupation" is a pejorative legally incorrect characterization. Epshtein: "laudable goal of a two state solution" that the Arabs rejected multiple times at least since 1936, and that Israelis now understand is suicidal. "Just because Hamas puts civilians in harm's way and seeks to maximize the civilian death toll does not mean Israel should help them achieive this goal" despite COL Kemp, MAJ John Spencer, the Global End Group and others findings that the civilian:combatant ratio is the lowest in the history of warfare (despite Hamas' use of human shields and the unprecedently challenging battlefield created by Hamas). Sadly Mr de M is either unaware of or amnestic of the deceitful premise of Oslo that would have created a culturally tolerant climate compatible with a two-state solution had it not been betrayed by Arafat, Abbas, ie Israel's putative "peace partners." Although Epshtein's position is more correct, neither author, nor Nick appears literate re: the documented history and legal status of the disputed territories. Regrettably this doesn't inhibit them from expressing their strongly held uninformed opinions.
Yes. Excellent comment. I think with international calls for two states the diplomatic pressure pushes both ways. Is Israel actually serious about two states? October 7 served as a pretext for more West Bank settlement, could the government coalesce to actually move or abandon 500k settlers? Regardless of how it ultimately plays out on the ground, international calls for two states force the hand of leaders of Israel and Palestine to show their true colors and willingness to compromise.
Let’s suspend disbelief in the 2 state delusion and imagine there was a new state of Palestine (even though Arabic does not have a P.). What would it resemble and what would be the outcome?
I read within the past 6 months that a New Jersey synagogue was hosting an open house for realtors selling land in the West Bank - lands whose titles would be cloudy as swamp water in most of the USA. It's theft of Palestinian lands, and it's blatant, immoral, unethical, and maybe unlawful. It's certainly disgusting. Settlers have just beaten a kid to death. Will a Palestinian state have the judicial, political, and police power to evict the unlawful settlers?
Isn't it a bit late? I mean, clearly the Israeli goal is to not have a Palestinian living in Israel, Gaza or the West Bank.
Extremists on both sides have failed to crush the opposing side, despite their fiercest efforts. This 1938 Pathé newsreel summed it up perfectly: "once again, the irresistible force of Zionism meets the immovable object of Arab nationalism." Like it or loathe it, Israelis & Palestinians are stuck with each other for the foreseeable future.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-qMO4hk0aQ