I do not support anyone who is pro Hamas, but I am troubled by those who lump everyone who is appalled by the slaughter of Palestinian civilians or who criticize Israel into the Hamas camp. I don't know where Kahlil stands regarding Hamas, but there are many others who have been unfairly abused for opposing terrorism and war crimes by both Hamas and the Israeli government. I would appreciate it if you were more nuanced in your criticism of protesters.
Garry Kasparov has been very vocal on social media about how anyone protesting against the US continuing to fund the IDF's war crimes is no better than MAGA, and Uriel Epshtein has done nothing to challenge that delusion — likely because he shares it.
i'm not surprised that your centrist impulses are showing but the suggestion that opposition to israel's genocide on campus is "radical" is just silly, especially now that public opinion has shifted against israel. that college student are demanding their institutions divest from their own financial support of the genocide is hardly "radical." that you smear mahmoud khalil as a mass murder sympathizer with we have so much evidence of his deep humanity and peacemaker role is bordeline slanderous. that you think students protesting *invitations* for people spreading hate is equivalent to university complicity with legal attacks on their students just shows why centrists will never be able to get us out of the mess that centrists helped create.
So yes, being a leader of an organization that congratulated Hamas on the Oct 7 attacks, puts that leader on the fringe of American public opinion.
American public opinion isn’t always right. Sometimes it’s absurd or immoral. But undoubtedly, if you want to increase support of due process it’s easier to champion a victim who Americans are more likely to support.
the point that support for israel is dropping like a stone remains the case and it began to drop before the genocide kicked into high gear. that this is happening in an environment where israel supporters lie 24/7, the media refuses to let palestinan voices be heard and those who do get to speak are routinely slandered all the more important to note. arguably american opinion would be better if the palestinian resistance was described more like the plucky ukranians fighting to reclaim their land from a colonial invader rather than brutes
lastly, i'll remind everyone that americans also had a negative opinion of MLK Jr. so there's that.
again, there was no systematic rapes on Oct. 7th; this has been consistently claimed without any evidence and repeated ad nauseum. we do however have consistent evidence of systematic sexual torture by israel that never seems to cross the lips of our opinion makers.
and yes, they will continue to go after 'unsympathetic' people but it will help if we actually tell the truth about these people rather than say "sure but"
No evidence of rapes on October 7 at all. It never made sense to me. All soldiers are very concerned with self-preservation. Hamas soldiers are not stupid enough to put their lives at risk for an act that is condemned in Muslim culture anyway.
“Genocide” was defined by Raphael Lemkin who lived not far from my apartment when I was at Columbia. Hamas is guilty of genocide. Israel not so much however offensive their military action. But then half of Israelis are “Jewish Arabs” from what are now Arab states.
While it may be comforting to invoke the authority of a man who's been dead for more than 65 years, we have the benefit of subsequent history and ongoing scholarship in the field to guide on modern understanding of what constitutes genocide.
As for the claim that "Hamas committed genocide," its frikkin laughable. This is both in terms of the magnification of a barely equipped militia into a force capable of substantively harming a population protected by a nuclear armed state with the largest regional military and an endless supply of bombs from the global military hegemon, or even what happened on 10/7. Lets stipulate that about 1/3 of the people killed were from an occupying military force; tomorrow is the 92nd anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and none of us will mourn the German soldiers killed in the rebellion. Untold hundreds were admittedly killed by Israel itself as it shelled the kibbutzim and unleashed air to surface missiles against cars holding hostages who Hamas intended to trade for hostages held by Israel; we don't actually know how many because Israel refused independent investigators and destroyed the evidence. There were certainly war crimes committed in the murders of unarmed children and the elderly but that's far from the systematic campaign of extermination clearly and repeatedly articulated by Israeli leadership and implemented by its military.
Finally, there's a clever bit of elision in using the very flattening "Israeli Arabs" in describing the descendants of people expelled from communities across southwest Asia and north Africa. Lets remember that Arab Jews had been indigenous to those lands since time immemorial and were expelled as a result of Israel's expulsion of indigenous Palestinians. These diasporas all had their own pre-modern histories, traditions, and links to local communities and it was Israel's alliance with Empire that sparked their destruction.
And its that ongoing relationship with Empire, now the American rather than European ones, that needs to be broken. The US has indulged the fantasy of "the two state solution" for decades now while letting Israel make it impossible. In this case the US needs to cut Israel loose, cut off weapons and diplomatic cover, and let it face accountability for its crimes. The attempt to defend Israel's genocide has driven both the Dems & GOP into war madness and host of repression at home. Its a vector for the GOP's wholesale attack on universities and civil society. And its empowering a psychotic political formation that is attacking everything Gary here is trying to defend
Alex...I agree with the points that you make...but not all of us "centrists" are cut from the same cloth. I don't know what mess we have created...it seems to me that the people in power in the US have been either on the right or the left...but there hasn't been a consistently centrist administration or policies since Bill Clinton left the stage.
i'd say obama ran left and governed right down the middle. his failure to hold bush accountable after the lies that got us into iraq laid the groundwork for this. it was centrists who hypercharged the deportation machinery under obama, nominated hillary clinton, who killed build back better (manchin/synema/etc), who kept shoveling money to help israel continue the genocide, etc.
so no, you may not be cut from the same cloth but the impulse to find some middle ground between those calling for justice and a better world and those seeking to dominate us has led us here.
The energy behind Kilmar Abrego Garcia is building with Sen. Van Hollen’s plans to travel to El Salvador. Totally makes sense to me that this is the right place to invest energy in opposition to Trumpian authoritarianism.
Opposing right-wing excesses doesn't automatically make one a left-winger. Nor does opposing the excesses of the IDF and Israeli government render one an antisemite. The only reason these allegations can gain any traction whatsoever is because the Overton window has been shoved so far to the right.
>>We must defend our fundamental rights, period. Not controversial folk heroes. Not polarizing pet causes. The Constitution belongs to all people in this country, or it belongs to no one at all.<<
First, I signed up immediately when I read your defense of fundamental rights. I very much like the idea of a big tent. I have stated on my own recently that democracy, human rights, and the rule of law are the bottom line.
But I need some clarification when it comes to Israel. If I say that Israel is probably committing genocide in Gaza and, at the very least, is pursuing ethnic cleansing, should that make me controversial? Is revulsion at the way that Israel is bombing and starving the residents of Gaza a "pet cause"?
Trump's attack on the universities is basically an attack on pro-palestinian speech. The fundamental assumption is that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism.
Israel and the United States have murdered at least 50,000 Palestinians. Should we not talk about this?
Does preserving democracy in America require abandoning the Palestinians?
Should we only defend democracy, human rights, and the rule of law within the boundaries of the United States?
Doesn’t look to me like anyone is suggesting that it’s an either/or. Palestinians needn’t be abandoned just because the terrorist methods of Hamas are condemned. What I see being advocated is that we stand for principles of freedom and human dignity which means opposing **both** militant Zionism and Hamas.
The larger point, from a strategic perspective, is that Kilmar Abrego Garcia presents a clear opportunity to draw a strong moral distinction between the aims of Trumpian authoritarianism and the aims of liberal democracy. The strategy of investing energy and attention on Abrego Garcia’s case as opposed to Khalil’s case is much more likely to be broadly resonant with the public. This is where the energy and effort should go.
I’m not certain that I understand the relevance of your question… if the point that you are making is that the U.S. government and bureaucracy often gets things wrong, then I certainly have no argument. If the point is that opposition to an aggressive and oppressive regime sometimes requires aggressive means then I also won’t argue. I would say that the latter point is subjective and conditional — different moral lines can be drawn in different circumstances.
If the point you are making is to draw an equivalence between Nelson Mandela and Hamas, then I am skeptical.
Focusing efforts on freeing Mahmoud Khalil would be politically challenging because he’s views are unpopular and for many repulsive.
From my vantage point consuming news & commentary, observing April 5th signs, and seeing interviews/press releases/videos from Democratic leaders, I don’t think that anyone within the anti-Trump movement is focused on him. The tariffs and Doge seem to be the focus. Even within complaints about illegal detainment of immigrants or visa holders, from what I have seen the focus seems to be on Kilmar Abrigo García.
I think you are correct that focus on Khalil is not helpful to the larger effort. But let's take a step back. What about the encampments? Should we agree with Trump that these are reprehensible? That demonstrating against genocide should not happen on University campuses?
Columbia's student newspaper did some very detailed on-the-ground reporting despite attempts by the administration to silence them. I would recommend reading their version of events, which reflects very poorly on the NYPD and on neoconservative pundits like Kasparov and Epshtein who demonize anyone who protests against IDF war crimes.
I do not support anyone who is pro Hamas, but I am troubled by those who lump everyone who is appalled by the slaughter of Palestinian civilians or who criticize Israel into the Hamas camp. I don't know where Kahlil stands regarding Hamas, but there are many others who have been unfairly abused for opposing terrorism and war crimes by both Hamas and the Israeli government. I would appreciate it if you were more nuanced in your criticism of protesters.
Couldn’t agree more. This is the view that needs to be way more prominent. The narrative, probably on both sides, is tightly controlled, though.
Garry Kasparov has been very vocal on social media about how anyone protesting against the US continuing to fund the IDF's war crimes is no better than MAGA, and Uriel Epshtein has done nothing to challenge that delusion — likely because he shares it.
i'm not surprised that your centrist impulses are showing but the suggestion that opposition to israel's genocide on campus is "radical" is just silly, especially now that public opinion has shifted against israel. that college student are demanding their institutions divest from their own financial support of the genocide is hardly "radical." that you smear mahmoud khalil as a mass murder sympathizer with we have so much evidence of his deep humanity and peacemaker role is bordeline slanderous. that you think students protesting *invitations* for people spreading hate is equivalent to university complicity with legal attacks on their students just shows why centrists will never be able to get us out of the mess that centrists helped create.
Despite the war in Gaza diminishing support for Israel and increasing support for Palestinians, more Americans support Israel than Palestinians. https://news.gallup.com/poll/657404/less-half-sympathetic-toward-israelis.aspx
Americans also have unfavorable views of Hamas and particularly the Oct 7th attacks.
https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/
So yes, being a leader of an organization that congratulated Hamas on the Oct 7 attacks, puts that leader on the fringe of American public opinion.
American public opinion isn’t always right. Sometimes it’s absurd or immoral. But undoubtedly, if you want to increase support of due process it’s easier to champion a victim who Americans are more likely to support.
the point that support for israel is dropping like a stone remains the case and it began to drop before the genocide kicked into high gear. that this is happening in an environment where israel supporters lie 24/7, the media refuses to let palestinan voices be heard and those who do get to speak are routinely slandered all the more important to note. arguably american opinion would be better if the palestinian resistance was described more like the plucky ukranians fighting to reclaim their land from a colonial invader rather than brutes
lastly, i'll remind everyone that americans also had a negative opinion of MLK Jr. so there's that.
Americans are NOT going to back rape and murder as a valid tactics of resistance regardless of their support of Palestinians generally.
But the point Kasparov makes is that Trump tactically chose Khalil first because he’s an unsympathetic figure. Fairness doesn’t matter.
again, there was no systematic rapes on Oct. 7th; this has been consistently claimed without any evidence and repeated ad nauseum. we do however have consistent evidence of systematic sexual torture by israel that never seems to cross the lips of our opinion makers.
and yes, they will continue to go after 'unsympathetic' people but it will help if we actually tell the truth about these people rather than say "sure but"
No evidence of rapes on October 7 at all. It never made sense to me. All soldiers are very concerned with self-preservation. Hamas soldiers are not stupid enough to put their lives at risk for an act that is condemned in Muslim culture anyway.
How should Palestinians resist occupation?
“Genocide” was defined by Raphael Lemkin who lived not far from my apartment when I was at Columbia. Hamas is guilty of genocide. Israel not so much however offensive their military action. But then half of Israelis are “Jewish Arabs” from what are now Arab states.
While it may be comforting to invoke the authority of a man who's been dead for more than 65 years, we have the benefit of subsequent history and ongoing scholarship in the field to guide on modern understanding of what constitutes genocide.
Putting the ICC & IJC aside lets survey the field. Though Mr. Lemkin was a Zionist (https://www.academia.edu/27351779/Becoming_Cleopatra_The_Forgotten_Zionism_of_Raphael_Lemkin) the eponymously named Lemkin institute has been unequivocal in its use of the term (https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-on-why-we-call-the-israeli-attack-on-gaza-genocide). There is also the case of Israeli Genocide scholar Raz Segal who named it almost immediately (https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide). After all, with respect to the facts on the ground, Israel's only starved millions, smashed water systems, mosques, churches, archives, museums, universities, schools, hospitals, bakeries, agricultural fields, villages, & apartment blocks, killed doctors, poets, professors, & journalists. Its committed multiple field executions and buried its blindfolded victims in mass graves. You may not want to see a genocide but its frankly undeniable to anyone who cares to look.
As for the claim that "Hamas committed genocide," its frikkin laughable. This is both in terms of the magnification of a barely equipped militia into a force capable of substantively harming a population protected by a nuclear armed state with the largest regional military and an endless supply of bombs from the global military hegemon, or even what happened on 10/7. Lets stipulate that about 1/3 of the people killed were from an occupying military force; tomorrow is the 92nd anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and none of us will mourn the German soldiers killed in the rebellion. Untold hundreds were admittedly killed by Israel itself as it shelled the kibbutzim and unleashed air to surface missiles against cars holding hostages who Hamas intended to trade for hostages held by Israel; we don't actually know how many because Israel refused independent investigators and destroyed the evidence. There were certainly war crimes committed in the murders of unarmed children and the elderly but that's far from the systematic campaign of extermination clearly and repeatedly articulated by Israeli leadership and implemented by its military.
Finally, there's a clever bit of elision in using the very flattening "Israeli Arabs" in describing the descendants of people expelled from communities across southwest Asia and north Africa. Lets remember that Arab Jews had been indigenous to those lands since time immemorial and were expelled as a result of Israel's expulsion of indigenous Palestinians. These diasporas all had their own pre-modern histories, traditions, and links to local communities and it was Israel's alliance with Empire that sparked their destruction.
And its that ongoing relationship with Empire, now the American rather than European ones, that needs to be broken. The US has indulged the fantasy of "the two state solution" for decades now while letting Israel make it impossible. In this case the US needs to cut Israel loose, cut off weapons and diplomatic cover, and let it face accountability for its crimes. The attempt to defend Israel's genocide has driven both the Dems & GOP into war madness and host of repression at home. Its a vector for the GOP's wholesale attack on universities and civil society. And its empowering a psychotic political formation that is attacking everything Gary here is trying to defend
Alex...I agree with the points that you make...but not all of us "centrists" are cut from the same cloth. I don't know what mess we have created...it seems to me that the people in power in the US have been either on the right or the left...but there hasn't been a consistently centrist administration or policies since Bill Clinton left the stage.
i'd say obama ran left and governed right down the middle. his failure to hold bush accountable after the lies that got us into iraq laid the groundwork for this. it was centrists who hypercharged the deportation machinery under obama, nominated hillary clinton, who killed build back better (manchin/synema/etc), who kept shoveling money to help israel continue the genocide, etc.
so no, you may not be cut from the same cloth but the impulse to find some middle ground between those calling for justice and a better world and those seeking to dominate us has led us here.
The energy behind Kilmar Abrego Garcia is building with Sen. Van Hollen’s plans to travel to El Salvador. Totally makes sense to me that this is the right place to invest energy in opposition to Trumpian authoritarianism.
Opposing right-wing excesses doesn't automatically make one a left-winger. Nor does opposing the excesses of the IDF and Israeli government render one an antisemite. The only reason these allegations can gain any traction whatsoever is because the Overton window has been shoved so far to the right.
>>We must defend our fundamental rights, period. Not controversial folk heroes. Not polarizing pet causes. The Constitution belongs to all people in this country, or it belongs to no one at all.<<
First, I signed up immediately when I read your defense of fundamental rights. I very much like the idea of a big tent. I have stated on my own recently that democracy, human rights, and the rule of law are the bottom line.
But I need some clarification when it comes to Israel. If I say that Israel is probably committing genocide in Gaza and, at the very least, is pursuing ethnic cleansing, should that make me controversial? Is revulsion at the way that Israel is bombing and starving the residents of Gaza a "pet cause"?
Trump's attack on the universities is basically an attack on pro-palestinian speech. The fundamental assumption is that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism.
Israel and the United States have murdered at least 50,000 Palestinians. Should we not talk about this?
Does preserving democracy in America require abandoning the Palestinians?
Should we only defend democracy, human rights, and the rule of law within the boundaries of the United States?
Doesn’t look to me like anyone is suggesting that it’s an either/or. Palestinians needn’t be abandoned just because the terrorist methods of Hamas are condemned. What I see being advocated is that we stand for principles of freedom and human dignity which means opposing **both** militant Zionism and Hamas.
The larger point, from a strategic perspective, is that Kilmar Abrego Garcia presents a clear opportunity to draw a strong moral distinction between the aims of Trumpian authoritarianism and the aims of liberal democracy. The strategy of investing energy and attention on Abrego Garcia’s case as opposed to Khalil’s case is much more likely to be broadly resonant with the public. This is where the energy and effort should go.
>>This [Garcia] is where the energy and effort should go.<<
I agree, but I must ask you this:
Was Nelson Mandela a freedom fighter or a terrorist?
https://www.whitehouse.senate.gov/news/release/kerry-corker-whitehouse-announce-nelson-mandela-will-be-removed-from-terror-watch-lists/
I’m not certain that I understand the relevance of your question… if the point that you are making is that the U.S. government and bureaucracy often gets things wrong, then I certainly have no argument. If the point is that opposition to an aggressive and oppressive regime sometimes requires aggressive means then I also won’t argue. I would say that the latter point is subjective and conditional — different moral lines can be drawn in different circumstances.
If the point you are making is to draw an equivalence between Nelson Mandela and Hamas, then I am skeptical.
>>If the point you are making is to draw an equivalence between Nelson Mandela and Hamas, then I am skeptical.<<
Clearly the establishment in the US saw no difference: both are terrorists.
Question: Is armed resistance to occupation lawful?
https://dahershield.com/en/2024/02/07/the-right-to-resist-occupation-in-international-law/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_resist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_armed_resistance
“…we should focus on principles over policy, which is to say that reasonable people can disagree over what our immigration laws should be.”
This can’t be said often enough
Never have. Never will.
Focusing efforts on freeing Mahmoud Khalil would be politically challenging because he’s views are unpopular and for many repulsive.
From my vantage point consuming news & commentary, observing April 5th signs, and seeing interviews/press releases/videos from Democratic leaders, I don’t think that anyone within the anti-Trump movement is focused on him. The tariffs and Doge seem to be the focus. Even within complaints about illegal detainment of immigrants or visa holders, from what I have seen the focus seems to be on Kilmar Abrigo García.
Am I missing lots of attention on Khalil?
I think you are correct that focus on Khalil is not helpful to the larger effort. But let's take a step back. What about the encampments? Should we agree with Trump that these are reprehensible? That demonstrating against genocide should not happen on University campuses?
I don’t know. Different news reports and different claims on social media make me uncertain about what happened at Colombia or other campuses.
Columbia's student newspaper did some very detailed on-the-ground reporting despite attempts by the administration to silence them. I would recommend reading their version of events, which reflects very poorly on the NYPD and on neoconservative pundits like Kasparov and Epshtein who demonize anyone who protests against IDF war crimes.