People in power must be held accountable for their decisions and actions. It is fair to disagree and to comment negatively on things they say, but to demand that Fauci and OAC be held “accountable” for having expressed opinions you dislike is Orwellian. What is the “accountability” — must they write confessions of error? Engage in public struggle sessions where they criticize themselves? The people actually in power are madly selling this country out and grifting with both hands and a steam-shovel and you’re spending your time on what a retired doc and a minor back-bencher in the minority party said that that you disliked, and demanding that they be “accountable” to you for it.
minor back bencher? she would be the frontrunner for 28 for the D nomination if she announced. i think all he is saying is that snickering while saying woke 1 was "crazy" is not good enough if she doesnt say why, in fact, she has come to conclude it was so.
Fauci is a trained medical professional, for all his flaws. Where Trump is headed, he has absolutely no need for people who can think on their own. Hence the vitreous hatred of academia and every single scientist personally and collectively. That, and they hurt snake oil sales a lot
Also coming to mind is Pol Pot's omnicidal anti-intellectualism in the name of putting every Cambodian on farms. Even simply wearing glasses was enough for him to train his guns. The Trump Regime isn't at that stage yet, but the desire is there.
> [Fauci] assumed that Americans wanted false reassurances when what they really wanted was honesty.
I'm not sure I agree with you that Fauci was wrong. The scientists who stood up and said "we don't know" got either pilloried or papered over. People wanted answers badly, and if they didn't get them from elected officials, they pretty explicitly turned to people who manufactured them even if they weren't accurate.
The wisest take on Fauci I have read. And it’s not just on the lab origin question. The underlying issue is public scrutiny of gain of function research and our society’s assessment of the benefits versus the risks. I see wisdom nowhere on this deeper question.
Well I'm not denying gain of function research happened Dr foxy had nothing to do with it. The lab origin has been proven nonsense by over 10,000 virologists across the world who have access to the genome of the virus. Do you think they're all conspiring against us?
You miss my point. I disagree that there is no chance that Covid 19 was a lab escape and I would be interested in the citation for the 10,000 virologists. But….My real point is that independent of this question there are plenty of reasons for society to scrutinize the performance and definition of gain of function research and establish guidelines and regulations for its use. Both Rand Paul and Dr Fauci are standing in the way of our doing that.
i was chatting with gemini about something similar... which i know is not perfect... but since you mentioned the gain of function research, can you elaborate what is the problem from your perspective?
I am not a biology professional, more a wannabe; as I understand it virologists introduce genetic modifications into the viruses they are studying. They might look for variations that disable them or make them more potent. In the latter case that may be increasing potency in order to understand the virus, to find a counter measure, or to make a weapon. As I understand it the NIH has established a system of controls and very narrow definitions of what is “gain of function “ research and has rules and restrictions on it. A lot of other people, Rand Paul included, consider “gain of function” research to be just about any of the kinds of modifications that can be done. So in the previous times of testimony if Rand Paul would ask Fauci about “gain of function” research and Fauci would say “we don’t do that”. They would each be using a different definition but would make no effort to clarify that critical fact. Or to create an open discussion of what the definition should be and whether to and how to do that. These are really important questions regardless whether covid 19 was a lab leak of a gain of function modified virus or not.
so their "discussion" was a fight about a lay person definition vs institutional expert definition of what gain of function is? or about changes in the definition in the meantime?
on the bright side the discussion on GoF research was apparently going for a long time ... but as usual, i guess noone can find the time to go through all this discusisons (besides the people whos job it was to know this and participate)
EDIT: i think this paragraph from the ethics review document (linked above) is directly in line of your comment
"Woefully insufficient input has been obtained from a wide variety of scientists and from many other stakeholders among the general public. It is unethical to place so many members of the public at risk and then consult only scientists—or, even worse, just a small subset of scientists—and exclude others from the decision-making and oversight process … In many cases, conversations have only involved infectious-disease researchers and conflicts of interests among participants have not been adequately acknowledged or addressed… It is our responsibility as scientists to explain the rationale behind our work, including its benefits and risks, to the general public in terms that are accessible to those with an average level of education, rather than to be dismissive. This is especially important when the work has important consequences for the whole of society (Relman in Duprex et al. 2015, p. 61-63)."
so yes... the corncerns and the need for more open discussion was acknowledged even in 2015/16....
another bright aspect is that NIH is apparently working on improving the policies (in general) further so at least there is the possibility of open discussion you mention
apparently everyone can contribute "Comments on the above will be accepted until October 19, 2026"... but again i didnt go in the details
so there is some optimisim in that research will be well regulated (but policies might change further as knowledge grows... so its working as expected). On the other hand i find it a bit ironic that the crowd that wishes to deregulate as much as possible took extra regulation as one of their core fights....
Fauci is a reminder of a simple principle: Republicans will make villains, and they'll make a villain out of anyone. They will use their massive, well-funded hate machine to force it on you. They'll do it so thoroughly that even those who stood up to dictators in the past will be forced to play along to avoid being lumped in with them. It's a strategic move - sacrifice a pawn to avoid being trampled by the king.
Standing for freedom and decency, especially for the downtrodden and spat upon, especially if you ask the powerful to make small sacrifices, will make you powerful enemies. Get used to being the villain. In a morally bankrupt society, the decent are the villains. Fauci, AOC, etc. should embrace that instead of hiding.
- The "lab-leak hypothesis" being touted by the Trumpers does not posit an accidental release from a research lab of a natural virus (which is what the reasonable hypothesis was at the beginning of Covid) but the voluntary release of a fabricated bioweapon.
- no one was hounded anywhere for looking at any of these hypotheses from a scientific point of view, i.e. looking at the DNA evidence and the pattern of initial spread. I read numerous papers on that even until recently.
- Luc Montaigner lost his position and most of his reputation for falsifying data to prove hydroquinoline efficacy. I guess you are ready to endorse bleach injections, now, too.
- all the lab-leak attention is meant to hide the fact that Trump was president, he first refused to take obvious actions, then hindered all the response, finally grifted on equipment and medicines. If you want to follow a real hidden scandal, try to find out what kickbacks he got for finally allowing vaccine development in the USA as well.
- the lab-leak noise is also running a very effective smoke screen hiding the actual problem with the chinese response: denying at first the nature and the very existence of the pandemic, Xi and his regional slaves made the response to it slower and less effective. I guess you are OK with letting Xi off the hook, too.
Apparently, you have to make up your own reality in order to attack good people trying to do well. I will jot it down to old age catching up with you and letting your understandably large ego run amok. Please, get help. When you do, apologize for these screeds.
Ely, I be honest with you in saying that your words sound like you don't trust any solid scientific source. The Covid vaccine was a great gift of global science because the life-saving data is overwhelming in support. Conspiracy theories are a dead-end street. There are experts you can trust.
With all due respect Mr Kasparov, how about you investigate the vaccine industry instead of making blanket statements about RFK Jr being an anti vaxer. The Covid 19 mRNA shots have killed and maimed more than any other medical product. Reputable doctors know the consequences of what was done to humanity with these shots and worst, mandating them.
We know that they were neither safe nor effective. They didn’t even stop transmission.
You, from the Soviet Union, of all people, should be appalled by the medical tyranny that was foisted on people.
Your claims about that vaccination killing more people than any other product in the world are just absolutely lunacy. No connection to reality whatsoever. Even coincidentally. It actually saves at least 2 million American lives and over 20 million worldwide. There have only been a bit over 5,000 reimbursement claims for vaccination injury. And that's a self sign up endeavor. Shut the f**** up
Ana, "honest and truthful" is so easy to say long after the black death of Covid killed over a million Americans. And we had to figure it out on the fly. To protect life in the time of Trump is to be in the deep woods with a deranged president. Everyone saw it and didn't know how to deal with him. We're still in the deep woods with him.
We are a nation in crisis. Fascism is here. See: forced ankle monitors and resulting suicide. Our shot to do something is two months away. Posts that don’t push audiences to stop the cancer spread of this administration by voting every Republican out, especially in the run up to the midterms, is wholly unhelpful noise.
Accountability for saying things? Come on! The other band is dismounting and deconstructing what has been built in one century and has made this country successful and you are spending time talking about accountability from one person that said something that rubbed you the wrong way? This argument sounds almost identical to the argument that that riots that happened because of the murder of Mr. Floyd are identical in gravity to the what happened in Jan 6. Hint: THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. One is burning down a democracy by a President and his thugs, , the other is criminal behavior that needs to be punished, but wouldn't have collapsed and destroyed democratic principles.
I think some of what is perceived as arrogance is how doctors were trained when Fauci was in his formative years. And at least he was willing to admit some uncertainty even in private, which is more than I can say for most people today.
People in power must be held accountable for their decisions and actions. It is fair to disagree and to comment negatively on things they say, but to demand that Fauci and OAC be held “accountable” for having expressed opinions you dislike is Orwellian. What is the “accountability” — must they write confessions of error? Engage in public struggle sessions where they criticize themselves? The people actually in power are madly selling this country out and grifting with both hands and a steam-shovel and you’re spending your time on what a retired doc and a minor back-bencher in the minority party said that that you disliked, and demanding that they be “accountable” to you for it.
minor back bencher? she would be the frontrunner for 28 for the D nomination if she announced. i think all he is saying is that snickering while saying woke 1 was "crazy" is not good enough if she doesnt say why, in fact, she has come to conclude it was so.
Fauci is a trained medical professional, for all his flaws. Where Trump is headed, he has absolutely no need for people who can think on their own. Hence the vitreous hatred of academia and every single scientist personally and collectively. That, and they hurt snake oil sales a lot
Also coming to mind is Pol Pot's omnicidal anti-intellectualism in the name of putting every Cambodian on farms. Even simply wearing glasses was enough for him to train his guns. The Trump Regime isn't at that stage yet, but the desire is there.
Amen. Honestly, I’m beginning to question his agenda.
This is the most reasonable and intelligent take I've read on the whole situation. Thank you for being the voice of reason.
> [Fauci] assumed that Americans wanted false reassurances when what they really wanted was honesty.
I'm not sure I agree with you that Fauci was wrong. The scientists who stood up and said "we don't know" got either pilloried or papered over. People wanted answers badly, and if they didn't get them from elected officials, they pretty explicitly turned to people who manufactured them even if they weren't accurate.
The wisest take on Fauci I have read. And it’s not just on the lab origin question. The underlying issue is public scrutiny of gain of function research and our society’s assessment of the benefits versus the risks. I see wisdom nowhere on this deeper question.
Well I'm not denying gain of function research happened Dr foxy had nothing to do with it. The lab origin has been proven nonsense by over 10,000 virologists across the world who have access to the genome of the virus. Do you think they're all conspiring against us?
You miss my point. I disagree that there is no chance that Covid 19 was a lab escape and I would be interested in the citation for the 10,000 virologists. But….My real point is that independent of this question there are plenty of reasons for society to scrutinize the performance and definition of gain of function research and establish guidelines and regulations for its use. Both Rand Paul and Dr Fauci are standing in the way of our doing that.
i was chatting with gemini about something similar... which i know is not perfect... but since you mentioned the gain of function research, can you elaborate what is the problem from your perspective?
I am not a biology professional, more a wannabe; as I understand it virologists introduce genetic modifications into the viruses they are studying. They might look for variations that disable them or make them more potent. In the latter case that may be increasing potency in order to understand the virus, to find a counter measure, or to make a weapon. As I understand it the NIH has established a system of controls and very narrow definitions of what is “gain of function “ research and has rules and restrictions on it. A lot of other people, Rand Paul included, consider “gain of function” research to be just about any of the kinds of modifications that can be done. So in the previous times of testimony if Rand Paul would ask Fauci about “gain of function” research and Fauci would say “we don’t do that”. They would each be using a different definition but would make no effort to clarify that critical fact. Or to create an open discussion of what the definition should be and whether to and how to do that. These are really important questions regardless whether covid 19 was a lab leak of a gain of function modified virus or not.
so their "discussion" was a fight about a lay person definition vs institutional expert definition of what gain of function is? or about changes in the definition in the meantime?
on the bright side the discussion on GoF research was apparently going for a long time ... but as usual, i guess noone can find the time to go through all this discusisons (besides the people whos job it was to know this and participate)
https://osp.od.nih.gov/policies/national-science-advisory-board-for-biosecurity-nsabb/gain-of-function-research/
EDIT: i think this paragraph from the ethics review document (linked above) is directly in line of your comment
"Woefully insufficient input has been obtained from a wide variety of scientists and from many other stakeholders among the general public. It is unethical to place so many members of the public at risk and then consult only scientists—or, even worse, just a small subset of scientists—and exclude others from the decision-making and oversight process … In many cases, conversations have only involved infectious-disease researchers and conflicts of interests among participants have not been adequately acknowledged or addressed… It is our responsibility as scientists to explain the rationale behind our work, including its benefits and risks, to the general public in terms that are accessible to those with an average level of education, rather than to be dismissive. This is especially important when the work has important consequences for the whole of society (Relman in Duprex et al. 2015, p. 61-63)."
so yes... the corncerns and the need for more open discussion was acknowledged even in 2015/16....
another bright aspect is that NIH is apparently working on improving the policies (in general) further so at least there is the possibility of open discussion you mention
https://osp.od.nih.gov/policies/biosafety-and-biosecurity-policy#tab2/
apparently everyone can contribute "Comments on the above will be accepted until October 19, 2026"... but again i didnt go in the details
so there is some optimisim in that research will be well regulated (but policies might change further as knowledge grows... so its working as expected). On the other hand i find it a bit ironic that the crowd that wishes to deregulate as much as possible took extra regulation as one of their core fights....
Fauci is a reminder of a simple principle: Republicans will make villains, and they'll make a villain out of anyone. They will use their massive, well-funded hate machine to force it on you. They'll do it so thoroughly that even those who stood up to dictators in the past will be forced to play along to avoid being lumped in with them. It's a strategic move - sacrifice a pawn to avoid being trampled by the king.
Standing for freedom and decency, especially for the downtrodden and spat upon, especially if you ask the powerful to make small sacrifices, will make you powerful enemies. Get used to being the villain. In a morally bankrupt society, the decent are the villains. Fauci, AOC, etc. should embrace that instead of hiding.
As in when FDR said, "I welcome their hatred."?
Garry, a few points
- The "lab-leak hypothesis" being touted by the Trumpers does not posit an accidental release from a research lab of a natural virus (which is what the reasonable hypothesis was at the beginning of Covid) but the voluntary release of a fabricated bioweapon.
- no one was hounded anywhere for looking at any of these hypotheses from a scientific point of view, i.e. looking at the DNA evidence and the pattern of initial spread. I read numerous papers on that even until recently.
- Luc Montaigner lost his position and most of his reputation for falsifying data to prove hydroquinoline efficacy. I guess you are ready to endorse bleach injections, now, too.
- all the lab-leak attention is meant to hide the fact that Trump was president, he first refused to take obvious actions, then hindered all the response, finally grifted on equipment and medicines. If you want to follow a real hidden scandal, try to find out what kickbacks he got for finally allowing vaccine development in the USA as well.
- the lab-leak noise is also running a very effective smoke screen hiding the actual problem with the chinese response: denying at first the nature and the very existence of the pandemic, Xi and his regional slaves made the response to it slower and less effective. I guess you are OK with letting Xi off the hook, too.
Apparently, you have to make up your own reality in order to attack good people trying to do well. I will jot it down to old age catching up with you and letting your understandably large ego run amok. Please, get help. When you do, apologize for these screeds.
Ely, I be honest with you in saying that your words sound like you don't trust any solid scientific source. The Covid vaccine was a great gift of global science because the life-saving data is overwhelming in support. Conspiracy theories are a dead-end street. There are experts you can trust.
With all due respect Mr Kasparov, how about you investigate the vaccine industry instead of making blanket statements about RFK Jr being an anti vaxer. The Covid 19 mRNA shots have killed and maimed more than any other medical product. Reputable doctors know the consequences of what was done to humanity with these shots and worst, mandating them.
We know that they were neither safe nor effective. They didn’t even stop transmission.
You, from the Soviet Union, of all people, should be appalled by the medical tyranny that was foisted on people.
Your claims about that vaccination killing more people than any other product in the world are just absolutely lunacy. No connection to reality whatsoever. Even coincidentally. It actually saves at least 2 million American lives and over 20 million worldwide. There have only been a bit over 5,000 reimbursement claims for vaccination injury. And that's a self sign up endeavor. Shut the f**** up
care to link to some Lancet or similar highly respected journal supporting your claims?
Shut the f****** you lying piece of s*** dude you're the problem with social media. Fake ass cyber propaganda b*******
Vaccine mandates have been legal since 1909 until the supreme Court overturned of 120-year precedent
The solution is for people to be honest and truthful, a tall order at all times and now more than ever, since we are in the ‘post-truth’ era.
Ana, "honest and truthful" is so easy to say long after the black death of Covid killed over a million Americans. And we had to figure it out on the fly. To protect life in the time of Trump is to be in the deep woods with a deranged president. Everyone saw it and didn't know how to deal with him. We're still in the deep woods with him.
Indeed we are. We are in a very dangerous situation with a mad sociopath in charge.
We are a nation in crisis. Fascism is here. See: forced ankle monitors and resulting suicide. Our shot to do something is two months away. Posts that don’t push audiences to stop the cancer spread of this administration by voting every Republican out, especially in the run up to the midterms, is wholly unhelpful noise.
Gary - the irony of your association with a title viz The Next Move & an immediate reach for “arrogant” couldn’t be more ‘??’.
My respect precludes deployment of metaphors to dress the point.
Newton believed in alchemy since there was no real chemistry at the time but only superstitions, not because of bigotry.
Accountability for saying things? Come on! The other band is dismounting and deconstructing what has been built in one century and has made this country successful and you are spending time talking about accountability from one person that said something that rubbed you the wrong way? This argument sounds almost identical to the argument that that riots that happened because of the murder of Mr. Floyd are identical in gravity to the what happened in Jan 6. Hint: THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. One is burning down a democracy by a President and his thugs, , the other is criminal behavior that needs to be punished, but wouldn't have collapsed and destroyed democratic principles.
I think some of what is perceived as arrogance is how doctors were trained when Fauci was in his formative years. And at least he was willing to admit some uncertainty even in private, which is more than I can say for most people today.
Apologies, I'm from the UK, would you clarify what 'Woke 1" is refering to?
Trump and his cult made any accountability impossible forever by poisoning the information sphere to the extent nothing is ever believed anymore.
every news is fake
every expert is deep state or communist
every agency was divested of apolitical oversight and filled by sycophants
every data collection endeavor or regulation thereof not following party lines was removed
and lies are repeated however long it takes to make the cult believe them for truth
as Oxford dictionary well recognized in 2016 we now live in post-truth world
https://global.oup.com/academic/content/word-of-the-year/?cc=hr&lang=en&
there cannot be accountability when facts are irrelevant....and we have Trump and his bootlickers to thank for that
will the world be able to ever go back ... interesting times ahead